The last 20%

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vladamir Begemot, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    One of the unfortunate side effects of the Agile method for SotA appears to be leaving systems at the "functional, not great" stage. We constantly have calls for "finish what you started!" on the forums, but which systems are we talking about?

    A finished system is worth ten systems stuck at 80%.

    Finished systems will keep players. Stuck at 80% will lose players.

    Dungeons are the latest addition that has become more important than finishing prior systems. While I like the idea, judging by the past dungeons will also be left at about 80% done when development moves on.

    Please break this habit.

    Not included here:
    • Quest system. This is getting a complete overhaul, and thus not even started, so not in the last 20%.
    • Broad Combat. This appears to be at a local maxima at the moment. Combat systems have no clear finished point and are always going to be getting balanced, so discuss it at length elsewhere.
      • Specific sub-systems (see Obsidian Trials below) that can be polished and finished are fine. Keep it concise though.
    • New things. No matter how great, if it's new then it's got 80% to go before it gets to 80%. I want mannequines in my shop too, but that's for another thread.

    This is just stuff that needs to be finished so that it can legitimately be stamped as DONE.

    Unfinished systems that would greatly benefit the overall experience if they were finished:
    • Ambient sounds in scenes. I'm in Plains Road Encounter right now and there is the occasional gust of wind. That's the only ambient sound effect. This is a forested area and should be full of sound. There is so little ambient sfx across scenes that it is startling when I go near the Kingsport Docks and hear the seagulls.
      • According to Legendary Game Developer Will Wright, 30% of game development is sound. Missing or very little ambient sound means the scene is lifeless, quite literally, and thus at a maximum 70% done.
    • Sandbox. Item use on lot by anyone (total strangers included) without risk to the owner of losing the items. Chess pieces for example. The sandbox is a facade until I can pick up a candle on your lot (or dungeon) else lot and toss it around the room or use it to explore a dark corner, use their practice dummy, pick up a flute and play it, etc.
      • See Pokerstars VR for people being sucked in endlessly to being able to fiddle around with things. Fixing this opens up a huge amount of activities for us. RP. Chess. Building contests. Serving at the bar for real instead of through the trade interface.
      • Particularly important now that a bunch of new players are going to have houses, deco them out, and then realize that their interactivity is limited.
    • Dungeons, a plea for the future. I know they aren't done, but since you've put so much effort into them please don't leave them at 80%. Get the big features in that take them over the top. Features so big that they draw media attention and players with them. Dungeon master mode, playing as the enemy, interactivity (see previous bullet point), polish till they gleam.
    • Gustball. Make the ball roll with physics instead of set distance, and apply different force based on gust stack size. Sell us a town sized field.
      • This will keep a subset of us happy for years, foster leagues and tournaments and make you money because people are buying the fields/uniforms/foam fingers.
    • Fishing. Lots of posts about this. I'm hopeful on this due to current release notes. Don't leave it at "good enough".
    • Polish the UI functionality. Long promised but every time I hear it's coming I fear we're going to get another "Here's the new NPC Dialog window!" debacle or a "We took out the yellow borders and called it good" 5% improvement. The UI needs the full press, and to be stamped with DONE.
      • We've lost a lot of players to the UI. This is high priority.
      • Waiting until you have a system for us to Mod it isn't acceptable, make a good default UI with modding in mind, but make the UI soon.
      • This should include vendor UI. Merchanting is incredibly popular, possibly even keeping the game afloat as logging in and seeing you have sales is the only "daily quest" that the brain is wondering about while we are away from the game. As it is it's unfinished and restricts emergent economic gameplay, stifling economic flow and creativity.
    • Blocks. Make them stackable with ease as if we are in a post-Minecraft world.
      • Billions of dollars have been made on this. Participate in that market.
    • Water gathering fix or adjustment. Promised for many months, still not in.
    • Obsidian Trials. No queue, only one skill level tier, players have to wait for the timer to run out even if the match is over 20 seconds into it.
      • This might be the best example of getting a solid 80% done and then moving development on, leaving all that work to languish. Don't start things you aren't going to finish.
    • Instruments. Fix the "I can't hear you" and "I can't hear me" bug.
      • Imagine the bands frustration when not everyone can hear them. It kind of discourages putting on shows.
    • Lighting. Half the crafted lights don't cast shadows. Light range is all over the place even on the store lights.
    • Characters emote talking while sitting, and looking around/fidgeting. It looks like a bunch of statues once people sit down, even if they are talking.
      • We've got a great emote system, then you see us all sitting around at List's Mexican Restaurant/Tuesday Tavern night and it looks like a bunch of mannequins.
    What systems did I miss that are at 80% or more but need that final polish to be finished? Please add but keep it specific. Bullet points can be used by clicking the little dots button in the middle of the post controls.
     
  2. Adam Crow

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    Great list Vlad! Especially love the 'sandbox' points you made, that could add a ton to gameplay and help a lot with immersion.

    In my opinion the crafting system and the vendor functionality improvements should really be very high on the priority list, because they're such an important part of the game.
     
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  3. Dyonisys

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    Nothing more to say... Lit

    Bjorn Dyonisys
     
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  4. Terrence Phillip

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    Quests and UI should have been at 100% at release. This is what cost us the most players. It s hard to believe that the quest system is still this bad almost one year after release , and that it won t be overhauled before episode 2. This with the UI should be priority #1.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  5. Adam Crow

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    Hard to argue with that. As much as I want a crafting/vendor updates, quest and UI are definitely more important!
     
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  6. Cora Cuz'avich

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    OMG HERALDRY FOAM FINGERS
     
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  7. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    I hope for a big surprise, like the day, as I asked myself: why an overhaul for Solace Bridge?

    As I visited Solace Bridge AFTER that I really was surprised and pleased - it's a great place now!

    So: let's do the time warp again, like Eugena tells us at Solace Bridge lunar rift - and do it the same way with UI and all the mentioned points by Vladamir :)
    ... like Solace Bridge before - and after ...
     
  8. Vladamir Begemot

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    Speaking of which, Lunar Rifts should be usable from the world map.
     
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  9. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    One tenet of Agile methodology is the "Definition of Done."
    What is your definition of done?
     
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  10. Vladamir Begemot

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    Far less calls in the forums saying "Finish what is already in!" It happens so frequently I thought maybe we better make a list. I'm sure others have some to add.

    If you want to tell me all those things I listed are done, fine. I won't debate you on it, it's all just opinions anyway.
     
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  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Nothing is "done" until development stops. :) That said, there's a lot that feels like things are lacking and unpolished.
     
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  12. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Caernarvon

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    A lot of interesting and valid points Vlad... I guess it's all a matter of available resources and managing them. Hopefully they will get round to much of these things in good time, I also imagine much of it to be not quite as low-hanging fruit as one might think initially.

    Personally speaking, I've been quite impressed by how much has been squeezed out of what is, let's face it, a relatively small, yet passionate and talented and very industrious team on a regular and consistent basis, particularly the last few months. So I'm hopeful and confident that these things will get finished up and polished given time and with the aid of some more resources throughout the course of 2019 as the game continues to grow, which it certainly appears to be doing since the transition to F2P from what I'm witnessing at least.

    Undoubtedly much of it probably comes down to a priorities juggling act but from the main unfinished systems / features you listed above, I think the key one for me to fix as an urgent priority would be the UI functionality - lots to tend to there and make it less frustrating for both new players and veterans alike and bring it in line with what one would expect from a modern MMO, and as a bare minimum let us move any UI element, remember window positions and the ability to save/load layout configurations at a whim. I know the Dippy Bird has mentioned he definitely wants to get round to looking at UI customisation soon, so fingers crossed that will get improved and ideally before Ep. 2.

    Then I'd focus on finishing up the Dungeons system (which of course once its fully up and running can continue to grow with new features and styles etc.), the Sandbox item you mentioned, and ambient sounds which are yes very much lacking out there in the world. However, I think they're all important and valid points though, and furthermore I'd wager the team are aware of most of them and will hopefully look . But of course all of this, plus Questing / Journal revamp and Ep. 2, my goodness it's a full plate they have there, so let's hope they can get a few extra hands on deck this year to help them get there.
     
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  14. Forum Name

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    Instead of using the word “done”, since that isn’t really what happens with a live online game, a better word is “mature” systems.

    Only one so far - housing, so lots of room for improvement if resources are expanded to work on the others.
     
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  15. Vladamir Begemot

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    I agree that the devs have done an amazing amount of work and made a fantastic platform. I'm all in, that's why I occasionally like to make my position known on the status of the voyage.

    Another way to say that point would be "stay on it until it's done."

    But since the word Done is causing a hangup, how about instead shippable as a game or sandbox.

    Consider each of these elements individually. If it were its own game/sandbox, would it be shippable? Imagine it as a game you've just downloaded. Is it getting a great review, mixed, or negative?

    Krampus is shippable, and I'd give him a great review. Envy Angel I assume will be. Despite some complaints I hear about Mysterious Swamp, and some bugs in Ruined Keep, if they have ambient sounds they are shippable. If they don't have ambient sounds they would be in the mixed department.

    Unfortunately as great as housing is it's still mixed. It is essentially a virtual playground, but lacks the systems that support play. Talking, jumping (obstacle courses), and emoting are the extent of the system. Picking up items is limited to trusted individuals only. We can do great dance parties, but are severely limited in other areas.

    Obsidian Trials isn't shippable.

    Gustball (which will probably not happen, I get it) is not shippable.

    Fishing isn't. It's pretty cool, those giant fish trophys are freaken cool, but it misses more user input than a button press and some visuals to go with it. Devs should not stop on it until it is showing up in gaming articles as one of the best fishing experiences in games.

    Block building isn't shippable. Awesome things can be made, but put that in front of someone who's played a good block stacking game and they won't put up with it.

    Agriculture isn't shippable for about half the players. Yes, they can buy the water, so for those players it is shippable. But for the other half they will punish themselves relentlessly in order to save those 2g, and that is negative chemicals in the brain starting to associate with the game. Negative experiences in one area start to taint the whole system. Mixed. Half the people will like it, half will hate it.

    Instruments aren't shippable. Imagine Rockband where one song out of so many isn't audible. It's just one bug away from being shippable though.

    Shroud proper is a shippable game due to the enormity of it and the variety of activities. However, the more systems within the game that get that much talked about polish, the better the entire game becomes.

    I know these (except for gustball maybe) are all on the devs to do list.

    My post is simply to encourage them to focus on whichever systems (they do multiple at once) get the next polish pass and don't stop polishing until that system is rock solid 100% and would get a good review on its own. Don't swing through and improve it 10% this year, then 10% in 2020, that's an endless mediocrity. Knock it down and be done with it for 5 years. Repeat with the next one.
     
  16. Terrence Phillip

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    I agree 100%. But you d expect a lot more polish when a game is released, especially when we approach 1 year after release. I love Sota. I ve been a gamer since childhood. I m 42 now. I ve played a lot of games and Sota is the game I ve played the most. But at this point in time, the state of the questing system and the UI (and the general polish of the game) , is simply inexcusable. I just can t wrap my head around it. We ve lost so many players because of this. I don t understand why this is not priority #1 with the performance. Fixing the quest system for episode 2 is just too far away. I understand that staff is down, and I know the devs are working hard, but we re almost one year post release. Lets be honest , the game still looks like it s in beta. I still love the game, but I want it to appeal to a wider audience, and as Vladimir said, existing systems need to be polished first before adding new stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  17. Vladamir Begemot

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    @K1000 And when they do do it, don't stop at 80%!
     
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  18. craftymethod

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    Can we attempt to chop any tree? -no. (would love a "this tree is protected" error at least?
    Can we swing a pick at any rock? -no.
    Sneak and hiding are very use limited.

    i would go on but im getting great pirate gameplay from Star Citizen atm.
     
  19. Feeyo

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    Fully agree here, great post!
    - Quest system!
    - GUI!
    - Character customization very very poor, needs loads work.
    - Ambiance sounds and effects still needs loads of work.
    - Looting needs a rework, or give us more craftable stuff in the loot. (rare, epic patterns/recipes)
    - More PvE content, PvE dungeons, group/group of groups (raid) high tier scenes/dungeons
    - World Bosses
    - More subscription packages - Tier1, Tier2, Tier3 with extra benefits.

    And yes, release the finished work on production.
    Linking to a post of mine about some frustrations: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/my-opinion.149389/
     
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  20. Feeyo

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