Ideas for balance to bring in a larger player base

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by parallelogram, Jul 12, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. parallelogram

    parallelogram Avatar

    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    520
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I don’t grind. I bought my level 122 because it was impossible to keep up with the grind. I have played since R5. I hit 110 just playing the game on the other account with some intermittent grinding. A lot of my focus is on end game content because I’ve played the game so much that there is no other option. Killing the same mobs for xp over and over should be equal to the rewards of playing the game, that is what I am arguing. I can not participate in end game content unless I sit in Upper Tears for another 700 hours on my 110. I feel like a lot of people feel the same way. Having the ability to spend a few thousand dollars on this game and seeing others can not made me salty, I just want people to play with and 99% of the people I play with don’t have the luxury of investing that kind of time or money in this game, thus my post.

    I see a lot of old names like @Bambino and Jack Pirate coming out of the woodwork to respond. People who quit the game because of what I am talking about. I’ve begged them to come back only to hear the same thing over and over. These people are legends to this game and to say that they should grind 1000 hours to be able to participate in the end game content and fun we all enjoyed in alpha is absurd.
     
    K1000, Floors, Vaiden Luro and 2 others like this.
  2. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    Ok, thanks. It sounds that your aim is to have the highest level character possible and want to grind faster / easier to achieve that goal. That's fair enough. But otherwise I'd say why get a character to 110 then feel I need to buy an account with a 122 to be able to play the game? I think most here would agree that is unnecessary. Why grind game experience faster to get to end game content? What end game content? There really isn't any. At least any that can't be handled in a group. The whole point about the pace of progression we have is to cause players to experience the limited game world we have. Making it easier just promotes more grinding behavior only, making it possible to skip the game content we do have simply to bypass it and built a PVP character. And that's just not 'the game', as designed, here. SOTA really was intended to be designed around a single player story with an online component. Not a game where competitive leveling was 'the game' (though I see how Chris is leading it to that).

    Also, this game has no experience cap. As a result, we are naturally going to have a system of diminishing returns to hit each adventure level. It takes longer and longer, more and more XP each trip. That is the system. And in that system, originally level 100 was kinda viewed as a milestone and 110 was a stretch and 120 a real stretch to meet. Now are we arguing today that it should be easier to get to 120 because it is the new norm? Ok. But if we do that, will we then be arguing again next year that the curve needs to be adjusted again to be easier to get to 150? And easier again the following year to get to 200? Isn't that the argument you are making here for where we are today? Where would that? People are going to keep leveling. And as they do, the game designers are supposed to make it easier for everyone else to keep catching up?

    Lastly, let's recognize that spending dollars on the game, while friends have not, has nothing to do with the experience curve topic, right? Almost everything available for pledging has been related to housing or is cosmetic. If we feel guilt on that, that is about something else, not the adventure experience system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  3. parallelogram

    parallelogram Avatar

    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    520
    Trophy Points:
    18
    It all has relevance. My entire guild and all of my friends quit the game because of the above mentioned matters, now I play alone and I have been given about 10-15 accounts all level 95-110. I solo everything in the game now because I can’t get anyone to stick with the game. I don’t like playing with a lot of the people who stuck around. I do not like their personalities or their play styles. The game caters to these select few people and I am just asking for the game to cater to a broader audience like Ultima did. I would rather see this game with a population that exceeds a player run UO server of today. Right now there are less than 200 concurrent players on during normal hours. Peak hours, maybe 400-500? Let’s count active people doing things, not people crafting or afk dancing at an ingame party. Let’s count people online at one time not logging in throughout the day combined.
     
  4. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Even if I don't think there is a so net difference between levels ( i saw many time ppl lower level competing with ppl higher lvl) I understand the point of the OP and i recognize there is a difference between a skill lvl 100 and a skill 140, and not a small difference. While i don't agree with a game wipe, I think the combat progression should be revisited a bit, I would say to add a sort of skill cap which doesn't penalize too much players which already have high skills. My idea is: put an hard cap to skill to 140, you can't go over lvl 140 in a skill, but if you continue to lvl it up you will have a sort of minor benefit, like less reagent cost and focus cost for magic skill, and less gear decay and focus cost for weapon/armor skills. In this way you can still go on and lvl up skill over 140, but you don't get any benefit relevant to combat, like dmg boost or effects boost, but just a little benefit that doesn't change the combat mecanic itself but just help you to spend less money to fight ( less reagent cost, less durability decay).
    Why I think 140 is a good level to cap skills?
    - It is too easy to reach level 100 in a skill, and if attenuation will go away as chris said, you will be probably able to have every skill to 100 in less than 1 week, and this is not good for the longevity of the game. The cap shouldn't be something so easy to reach, you will need to work hard to reach it, but shouldn't be impossibile to reach as it is now ( afaik now cap is to level 200, something impossibile to reach, for now atleast )
    - Some skills have their real power unlocked just after level 120 ( this is how the game design works for certain skils ) , an example is Fire Speed from fire tree, which start to influence for real skills just after lvl 123: From lvl 1 to 122 of fire speed, your fire dots will procs every 1.5 sec, after you get 123 on fire speed skills, your fire dots will proc every 1,4 sec, so this skill realy has a meaning just after level 123 [ my number might not be perfectly accurate because i don't have the game opened right now ].

    This is just my idea, but I think that something should be done to help new players to compete in a relative small time with older players, compete doesn't mean having same level, but making level ( and skill level of course) not counting so much and not giving so much advantage like Para said. The trend in games now is to help people to skip the grinding part and acced fast to end game contents, so actual games are not based to grinding but based on end-game contents, here some examples:
    -Albion online, sandbox MMO RPG full loot PVP, is working a lot on improving NUE and helping new players to compete with older players; after the F2P they made xp easier to do, adding random dungeon and much more stuff while you could get xp faster and adding experience book that you can buy from other players and use for gaining xp ( which i consider a bit p2w but still a good solution for people who doesn't want to invest lot of time grinding). This helped new player to have same tools and skills of older players pretty soon, of course having an high level doesn't mean autowin, but you still need your personal skill, game knowledge and experience to win a fight.
    -WoW allows you to buy a 110 character ( or gift for free if you create a new account) , so you have to do just 10 level and start to do the end-game contents PVP and PVE ( battleground, arenas, dungeon, raids). The real game is after level 120, contents under level 120 are just for level up or for gain achievement/cosmetic stuffs/ pets.


    The point is older and new successfull companies are working mostly on end-game contents and helping player to avoid the grind, cause the grind is not what player wants to do all the time, it is just a stage they pass to reach a certain goal, usualy to be strong enough to compete in end-game contents. The problem of SOTA is that actualy hasn't any end-game content, or atleast has just a few, and the whole game is incentrated into grinding, but grinding for gain what? This is what scare off new player and discourage them to play, they need a goal to reach in able to compete and focus on end-game contents and not the grind itself. How do you feel if I say you you have to be level 120 in order to compete in PVP, but the time you reach level 120, people already reached level 140, so i will say to you, now you have to level up more for get those people that will never stop to grind and you will never reach.

    P.S. I am not saying a level 120 cannot compete with a level 140, he can compete but it will be harder, and more the people level up more he has to level up to try to reach them, because at a certain point the gap will be so much and he cannot compete anymore. We should put a end to this grinding fest, where people could stop and start to do other contents.
     
  5. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    So you cant get to end game but you solo everything? Even in pvp you had groups of people leave when you showed up cuz they could not kill you, but you cant compete in pvp. But lets blame everything on the grind yet, what you have done has shown otherwise. Is it possible there are other factors? Maybe the horrid quest system? Or when things that were suppose to be exclusive became available again?

    Now, I didnt say anything of what you proposed in your OP because your OP did not mention a wipe. My responses have been from the time wipe was being mentioned and have been showing the bad side of what a wipe would do, and fail to accomplish.

    I dont think albion did a wipe did they?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  6. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    If they did they could even start digging their grave. People spent tons of money in xp books and gold (even sold directly by the company on their official shop).
    The idea of a wipe/reset on a released game sounds simply absurd.
    People grind and spend a lot on Albion but however, the perception of the gap is different. Almost every content has a softcap, for example if the cap is 1000 ip (item power) and you have 1400, everything above 1000 is reduced by 50% so your real ip is 1200, this helps a lot to reduce the gap.
     
  7. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

    Messages:
    7,944
    Likes Received:
    9,015
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Hemut
    There are Pvp zones that do have level caps. Just mentioning that.
     
  8. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Level cap is a lazy solution, skill cap to a certain level it's another point.
     
  9. parallelogram

    parallelogram Avatar

    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    520
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Mac, I understand you're upset because my post will hurt your business but it's pretty simple and you are either not reading because you are angry or you just are not reading. I dominated on a level 120 because I min/maxed given the above mentioned disbalanced in the game. On a level 110 I can not do that. On a 120 I can solo the Spider Queen, on a level 110, I can not. I laid that all out in the first post. I did not ask for a wipe, I called for balance. On a level 120 I can wipe a group of 130's because I understand a lot of problems in this game. A lot of the groups of 130's I fight are not min/maxed. There is a massive difference between a skill leveled to 100 and a skill leveled to 140-160. That is my point, plain and simple. I wipe would be awesome but we all know that won't happen so stop redirecting my thread.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  10. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Ummmm, if you read this thread, you will see mentions of a wipe/reset just above where I posted and yes YOU even agreed with the person. Sorry not everything is about you, there are other players making posts too. Try reading the thread in order, puts things in context.
     
  11. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    3,729
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I like this idea. Still though getting a skill to 140 is no easy task. I've been playing for a long time and due to my playstyle, which is spread out between almost every facet of the game, I still don't have anything to 140.

    But if I knew 140 was the power cap I would have pushed my main skills up first instead of messing around with different builds. That would make me feel a lot better about pvp, knowing that im on a similar power level to my opponents. Then when i get stomped, at least i know it's because i suck. (Which is usually the case anyways haha)

    140's still a ton of grinding though, don't you think?
     
  12. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    All this is never going to happen.

    Just get some scenarios in where the skill levels are normalized (not capped, brought up or taken down to a set level), and turn us loose. Get the castle sieges going with everyone have all their skills at 100, get the Obsidian Trails set up the same way, put in the queue, and then we've got a competitive environment that relies on player skill, not grind.

    If the players start fighting at that point, we've got a solid combat system. If not, we don't.

    In PvE, if you can't solo it then get a friend. If a big group of you can't solo it, then it's too hard for you and go do something else first.
     
  13. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh, and as a player driven content game, we need a little Kobold Console that lets us set up the game rules for RP matches and such. Team size, skill level, loot yes/no.
     
  14. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Maybe 130 could be better, that was just my proposal, it doesn't have to be too hard but at the same time you should be accomplished when you reach it.
    Btw for example Fire Arrow from lvl 1 to 140 is 100kk xp, if they get rid of attenuation and they dont' put in place anything else to replace, it's not an hard task to collect 100kk exp.

    Btw what you feel about the power cap, is what many feel, people want goals, they can grind if they have goals, but just a couple are willing to spend all their time grinding without any goals, knowing it will be last an infite time.

    Imo is something that should be adressed soon since attenuation is going away ( i am definitely for let it go away) : adding skill cap and removing attenuation could be realy something that attracts a lot new and old player to join or come back to the game.
     
  15. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    3,729
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah that literally removes the grind. I like it.
     
    Time Lord, Mac2 and Vladamir Begemot like this.
  16. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Simple solutions are often the best.

    I'm playing a lot of simulation/city builders right now, and I find I'll waste many extra hours on another play through just to get a few Achievements in Steam or GoG. Stupid amounts of extra play time when it comes to Civ. I know our achievements got flushed a long time ago, but it might be worth them taking a second look at putting them in.
     
  17. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    7,912
    Trophy Points:
    153
    If I took down my 140 skills and the 160 one, I wonder how many 130's I would have. Hell, I might be done grinding then LOL lets do it LOL.

    OH MAN, I played civ 3, and I abused the hell out of the save game function and made sure every little bonus thing gave me a, dam what were they called again, a science? But anyways, I had modern armor in 1492. It was hilarious fighting spear men and riflemen with tanks LOL.
     
  18. Oracle Watcher

    Oracle Watcher Avatar

    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    533
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    [ROMEUS]Connection interrupt!
    Bzzt, just a friendly reminder to not make arguments too personal!

    [​IMG]
     
  19. marthos

    marthos Avatar

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    616
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Unfortunately there was never a solution implemented to prevent the power gap. Way back, the idea was that you would lose a tiny amount of experience each time you leveled up a skill. Skill A goes up, all other skills go down a tiny bit based on your total experience. Eventually you'd lose the same amount of exp each time you leveled up a skill, creating a cap. The developers could control that cap by adjusting the math behind it. This would allow a character to change from being a warrior to being a wizard by using new skills, but would not create a god-like being mastering every skill. Exploits would only result in you hitting that cap sooner, not putting an insurmountable distance between the exploiters and the fair players. I loved this idea and was sad when it was scrapped. But I don't think this system can be implemented without a lot of backlash now - the genie is out of the bottle.

    Resetting has its own problems that others mentioned.

    My suggestion, which isn't a complete fix, would be to change how passive skills work. Instead of ALL passive skills working ALL the time, you instead have to equip them into your deck. Limit the number of passive skills in a deck to a fixed number. Instead of always having high resists to every magic school, players would have to pick and choose which ones to go with each deck.

    I'm sad to see the game with such a low player base. I would love to see what's planned in the future. Are we happy with the status quo, and this game being primarily a RP/House/Town deco game? That's cool if it is. But if we want to this to be a PvP game - balance is needed and new players need to be able to compete. If we want this to be a PvE game, we need more boss mechanics to compete with the complex raids out there. If we want this to be a living breathing world, we need to have players changing the world for everyone (like capture a control point and then charge people a fee to bypass the zone). If we want this to be an economy focused game, we need to have more demand for goods - that means gear breaking much faster.

    I just see the devs focused on the RP/House/Town stuff. That's what brings in the money, I get it. But I also see so much more potential in this game that we're not reaching. But money talks...you can't monetize PvE, PvP, and such as easily without being pay to win. So we'll keep getting more emotes, more decorations, more houses and the core playerbase will keep funding the game at its current level. And I'll keep being sad for what the game could become.
     
  20. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    15,678
    Likes Received:
    24,293
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    They have a plan for PvP. Part of it is level caps in PvP zones. If you want to know about it then visit the obsidian trials. Everyone entering that zone is capped at level 100 and their skills are also capped at 100. I think this is a good solution and I think that all PvP fights should follow those rules.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.