Npc Buy prices on produce ie players selling to npc

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Lorddread, Mar 26, 2021.

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  1. Lorddread

    Lorddread Avatar

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    Why did you lower price of produce sold to npc by players? There is no reason at all to have changed that and esp without a warning. There was a long warning that buying produce from npc would be double and then removed at later date but none otward us selling to npc. It should remain the way it was. Not everyone wants to set up a player vendor and some use it to make gold in game not a lot but some gold and enjoy farming etc. WE should not be forced to do sell to other players at all. The prices were reasonable and not to much. Anyway this change shouldn't have been done how it was. People have been growing to sell to npc since farming came and your going to make them grow something else instead or stop growing period.
    Should have had at least time it takes to grow inside a house before changes to prices that npc buy them from you at the very least and a warning it was coming. But in my opinion they should remain the way they were before this release as there is absolutely no reason to lower what npc buys them for. Was told to add your name here @Elgarion to get you to maybe answer this for me please.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  2. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    You're precisely right in spotting the reason, they're meant to be sold to players to support the economy and not be an unlimited pipeline for vendor trash. Keep in mind, a lot of these things got added to recipes and now are in demand by players or even added to additional recipes to increase demand, and agriculture items will continue to grow in demand as time passes when more and more recipes are added supporting agriculture. 23 new recipes were added to the game in R88, and we're not slowing down. Underutilized items will be on high focus for recipe use. Recipes will be added to the game continually and agriculture products will be highly scrutinized for more purpose.

    If your concern is making gold, you're ultimately not going to be able to make as much vendor trashing the items compared to selling to players (your choice though), and having a system that allows players to simply make vendor trash is not a concept healthy for an MMO or the player economy. An offline game, sure. Player economy is key, and this vendor trash pipeline concept is a problem, not an intended feature.

    BUT, that being said, I will review all the sale prices of crops shortly and make adjustments for R89, and perhaps even adjust some seed prices to help with your non-player economy vendor trash activities in some way, though I'll definitely be attempting to put price points to ensure players will make more money selling to other players. What is most important is that I ensure the sale price to NPC merchants is not competitive with player prices, and the NPC merchants do not sell the item ultimately to compete as well. This will mostly pertain to agriculture, and not spell reagents (yes I know 3 reagents are in agriculture). We have no immediate plans to touch those 3 grown reagents in this regard, since they're 100% needed for spell casting they're availability needs to be 100% guaranteed. In contrast, if someone can't make the food they want, they can switch things up temporarily to other foods until they get their source for the material or food they need. Might make a min-maxer temporarily frustrated, but the food system now provides a VERY wide variety of options, and therefore nobody should feel completely locked.

    Side note... I'll be putting ALL seeds on ALL seed vendors. It was so annoying needing to go to X number of places to get all my seeds.

    Also, this is a precursor to removing them from NPC merchants for purchase as well (though you will still be able to sell to them regardless, yes I'll review the prices) to make players the sole source of purchase. This is definitely coming, but if you want to sell to an NPC merchant because you do not want to be involved in the player economy in such a fashion, that is most certainly your prerogative. However, we'll be rewarding those that do plan to participate in the economy by making sure the NPC merchants prices are NOT competitive to player growers. So, I'll review the sale prices. But there isn't going to be too much intentional support for having systems where people can grind the creation of vendor trash, sorry, but I might tweak back after research to support your concerns.

    Comments are welcome, but do keep in mind, band-aids are coming to fix issues in the game, and after the dust settles, there'll be a new normal where hopefully it's all small tweaks going forward. We're striving to make this MMO a very player economy driven concept in all regards, and losing an entire system (agriculture) to vendor trash pipelines is not supportive of this in any way. I can continue to discuss, but please keep replies kind/considerate/constructive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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  3. AzazelReborn

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    In order for this to work like a proper MMO with player driven economy you will need to give us tools for a market. Right now with the archaic ways we have to beg on trade channel for prices and selling items is no way to run an economy, give us a tool in game to allow to sell and buy our items. The current system does not work at all. It is frustrating and cumbersome and it put new players off being involved in the economy.

    I would like any dev to try to use the current system we have and see what we have to deal with everyday in this game. Experience what we experience on daily basis then you will realise that we need an in game tool to help us out.
     
  4. Nubby

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    With this will you be lowering prices for things like coal? Before making armor I like to go to Ulfheim and gather crafting xp and borers for coal and ingot mold money. I don't mind needing to use a vendor to make more than a few thousand gold, but not sure I like the idea of having to use my vendor to sell every piece of loot I get. You made some great changes to loot this release, but I do not think our loot needed to loose value. Will all loot items we get be lowered like this?
     
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  5. Anpu

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    Another option is to kill humanoid creatures that drop weapons and armor and then sell those items to Theo in Owl's Head. Like the Bandit's and Rogues in Twins Foothills.
     
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  6. Nubby

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    I do that with the lesser wands and things, the rest gets salvaged. But will that gold be reduced too?
     
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  7. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    There are many amazing and successful player vendors out there, and in part, they're successful because they spend time advertising their wares. We have a new programmer who's focusing on UI atm, and vendor UI will get some love at some point, just not sure when. But this certainly does not need to wait for that. Those that are proactive in advertising their sale items with current systems will need to do so a bit longer, those that don't wish too -- MAYBE there's a global system coming? I've refrained from getting into those convo's since I'm not exactly sure what the final concept will be. We do know it needs loving, but the final approach is still in question. I do agree though, we do need to make this easier than a trade channel, a forums area, and a discord trade channel. MOST definitely. As a player, shopping was always VERY aggravating to me, BUT the key is to find your favorite supplier or suppliers, then continue to give them your support (or grow it yourself.)

    I think you're referring to common artifacts, some Uncommons, and the 3 things like Emerald Ash Borer, Black Cutworm, and Hemlock Borer. No... stuff that's primarily vendor trash will stay as such, but do keep in mind salvage work is currently underway, and I started it tomorrow. So you might want to take some of those things to your salvage table, but I won't be reducing the gold values of true vendor trash. For the arties, those never had their prices scaled. When they were initially created as uncommons, they all had set prices between 500 and 750. Then when each tier item was made within the artifact type, let's say Sword of Speed, all 5 tiers had the exact same gold value, including the lesser common version which simply makes no sense. When introducing Commons into the loot system at a much higher rate (which we did in a large way just now, and included even as rewards to EVERY daily quest in the game), that needed to be adjusted. MANY more will be in the player economy, and the price adjusted downward to compensate. Rares (which do drop occasionally), Legendary and Epic versions -- all of these have had their gold value very much increased.

    I answered somewhere else on the borers and cutworms today. Those were added to recipes, increased in drop rates on high tier nodes, and added to tables for low tier nodes. They're no longer pure vendor trash, and their prices dropped to compensate for increased amounts being available in the game. Similar concept to the common artifact price drop.
     
  8. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Also, with the mundane items being added to salvage, and I'll be adding rare surprises into their loot tables when you do salvage them, you might just like what pops in there occasionally, but in the least will get some basic crafting items with rare chances at T2 items. Nothing to replace gathering by any means but folks will definitely not be mad when they get mundane items any longer. I'm making a lot of targeted loot tables for these salvage items, so when you see a deco that is made of glass, is on a metal stand, and has a liquid in it? I'm taking that in mind any making a unique loot table for that combo. Only think I'm ignoring or cork stoppers on bottles :p
     
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  9. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Nope, not going to mess with those prices, but I'll be trying to give them salvage love (with rare fun results) to add to their potential value.
     
  10. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Keep in mind, lots of changes coming, so when the dust settles, there'll still be tweaking. If something ends up being too common? I'll add another recipe for a consumable for that ingredient, or maybe Sannio will put it in as a daily turn-in, or both etc. Bottom line though, things going straight to vendor trash with no real purpose? That's one of our biggest complaints is we have worthless horrible loot. That's changing. And while improving it, there's a nice opportunity to improve the crafting experience, so expect loot improvements to also benefit crafters and the overall player economy.
     
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  11. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Since we are supposed to be selling to players.

    ** HEY EVERYONE **

    Please buy from my vendors in Crafters Town, down 4 spaces to the right from the Oracle Confirmatory.

    My broke ass cannot afford to buy anything from you until you buy from my vendor first.

    Thank you.
     
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  12. Elwyn

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    This is all cool with me, as long as there's a way to get less pattern trash when salvaging. I don't need 100 Rusty Sword or Worn Cloak patterns, and I actually throw all of that Dirty/Ragged/Rusty/Shoddy/Worn stuff in a box where for an alt with reduced salvage skills can work on it. Not that it was a bad idea, but (presumably) being low-level raises the success chance so much, on patterns with limited appeal. Each pattern is that much less scrap that I would otherwise get.

    I just checked, and I actually have 103 Worn Cloak patterns in my patterns/recipes box. Next are Spiked Club with 73, and Dirty Cloth Boots at 42.
     
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  13. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Hmmmm... odd. I noticed when salvaging this recipe/pattern/book/map for wood pulp that I have 1,000,000 of, something caught my eye... are these faint runes I see? This must be a scroll (or tome) of some type... innnnnnnteresting. Alas, it is! One never before known to this world (which soon will be more known.)" That's the kind of fun stuff I'd like to add shortly. Those new consumables will not be ready for R89 or R90 though by any means. So perhaps when you can salvage them for pulp (which will come sooner), hold off a bit ;)
     
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  14. Sorgin Txakal

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    I really appreciate the efforts towards creating a stronger player-drive economy, however I feel leaving magic reagents out of the equation will limit farming demand to only foods, which are already overstocked on vendors as the food boom from R88 is almost over already.

    Over the past 30 days 91k garlic was used in the casting of spells as well as night shade:

    [​IMG]

    One city lot can produce 9k garlic per day, which would just about cover all of this. Throw in a 5-story basement on that same lot, and that's 45k more garlic per week or 180k garlic per month.

    So, from what I see in the data available - 1 casual farmer with just their basement could cover double the demand for garlic that exists in the game as a casting reagents.

    Public vendors exist, merchant cities exist, guilds exist, weekly auctions exist, trader chat exists - leaving alone active advertising by players - there are multiple avenues a player can explore with minimal effort to make a connection with a player farmer.


    I really feel that if ripping this band-aid off is going to be comprehensive, it needs to include all uses of a crop so that it welcomes more player farmers into the game.


    I have little doubt that many of the min-maxers have tens of thousands of garlic, mandrake, and nightshade in their banks anyway.

    People might yell and complain, but people always yell and complain. The major merchant cities are dying and most guilds are completely self-sustaining with huge abundances of common items.


    If items must remain on NPC merchants, please do make it to where nine times out of ten only costs are covered, if not taking a loss since farming & crafting are an infinite source of low-risk XP.



    A lot of players would be very happy if food would start to spoil and turn into fertilizer to increase farming yields while organically depleting the excess stocks of prepared foods, butchered meats, raw produce, etc. - nothing extreme, but like 30 days after last processing step would help with the excess of many of the ingredients that currently exist. This could also open the door for more uses of snow for players to craft freezers (maybe also a COTO large walk-in freezer) which need to be replenished with snow, but could have limited space where items degrade at a slower speed.
     
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  15. Lorddread

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    My biggest problem was how it was done ie lowering of buy prices of npc's. For instance I have things growing in basement dungeon and on farms outside that were started before this release and no one told us those prices were going to be changed. They told us npc sell price of produce was going up but not anything about the price they will buy them for from us. That is my problem. It seems all produce was lowered by 50% which since tea sold for 3 its now 1? You can't grow tea for 1g it costs just under 2 to even grow it. Just saying there should have been a period where prices stayed same and some warning issued that that was going to happen. Tea is used in 2 recipes each using 1 tea leaf each i believe or at least daemon tea is 1 tea so how much demand will there be for it esp considering its a high cost slow growing seed? Anyway whatever happens happens but warnings about changes should be there to give people time to adjust before they happen :)
     
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  16. Lained

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    There's two new recipes one using three leaves and another fifteen leaves.
     
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  17. Sorgin Txakal

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    Problem is, the more warning given in advance for things like this, the more players hoard items when they can get them cheap which will make it take months longer to see the intended effect in the economy.

    When I made this wish list request, the very next thing I should have done was go out and buy 50k in sacks of sugar in anticipation of increased sugar costs. I didn't, because I was hoping that the devs check on the recent sales and player inventory of items in storage containers before dropping a change like this in.

    Many ingredients I could have overstocked my magic cooking barrel of holding with before these changes, and I am sure many people actually did. But if the devs give too loud a warning too far in advance, then farmers would get hurt even worse because there would be people with tens of thousands of reagents and crops stored in containers in anticipation of eventual price increases.



    For example, I have 72k tea leaves sitting in a barrel now. I'm willing to sit on them and chip away in anticipation of more uses for tea coming in.


    But shaking up the economy to make something more engaging and rewarding for adventurers, crafters, and farmers alike will require creating the potential for conditions of scarcity to create actual real demand in the economy. This is why, despite possibly having the most to lose of any player in the game should food items start decomposing in storage, few things would please me more than to see items depleting from the the economy almost faster than they can be created, so real gold sinks can exist and then time (and gods willing time and costs associated with transportation) will actually become a factor in determining prices for items.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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  18. Lorddread

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    Oh didn't see those ones. not listed on wiki under tea leaves when i looked a few days ago thanks.
     
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  19. Lorddread

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    @Elgarion Also speaking of npc buy prices if npc buy prices have a number greater then what it cost to make other players would have to pay at least that much to buy them off farmers which would keep the prices up on player vendors more then not having them able to sell to npc's at all in my opinion :)
    Also to have a true player economy farmers should get at least 1 seed for each plant grown and a chance at an extra one so after initial buying of seeds they would not need to buy more unless they wanted to expand etc. :)
     
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  20. Lorddread

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    Problem with what you just said is npc buying from me at a certain price effects nothing toward hoarding but they warned people about npc sell price going up giving those people you are referring to a chance to hoard any produce they wanted to before the price went up on the npc? So doesn't apply does it? :) Not trying to argue about it either but give warning to people who could hoard but not to the farmers who were selling that way :) if you see my point :) Anyway all i am going to say about it all it is what it is. I remember same thing happening with deadly poison pots and people were given warning that price would drop quite some time beofre it did to give all them people a chance to get rid of there stock etc :)
     
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