Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

Is all well really?

 

NOT REALLY WELL, JUST A LIL WELL !

 

WELL MAYBE A WELL BIT MORE THAN A LIL WELL, WELL, WELL, well not that well. But well.

 

That they asked for 3 releases to get it in shape, says to me "Talk to us then." There is a tone that these are the three that will prove, or disprove, that the deck system is workable. What will they do if it's not? I have no idea. But they didn't say "We have a long way until release, plenty of time to get it perfect" they said "It should look like we want it after R20". It's really splitting hairs, and we're talking about a very thin window of hope, but it's what I'm reading into that. Maybe it's just my sunny optimism showing through...

It's OK to not want that, but look at what you have in stead. It's still a bar. Many people have pointed out that it functions almost identically to a random cool down. I've proposed a heat up style of game, where you have to do things to build up your focus to have enough to activate your skills. It would keep you involved, while changing the way things go. Working for that opening to launch a heavy attack, only to have it snatched away by a stunning blow would be an interesting combat that is random and leaves you feeling both in, and out, of control.
And that's just one idea.

There's a lot of simple things we can do to evolve the standard system without a total re-write of it. The reason it's used so much, is that it works. What Blizzard does well, is boil game-play down to it's smallest workable element that keeps the fun. It's a good starting point to build on. To evolve from. The evolution that got WoW where it was, isn't because it was built on shaky ground. Stand on the shoulders of giants and move us forward. Don't just plant a flag in the middle of nowhere and count on it being different to carry it. If difference is the only thing you can say about it, or at least is the strongest point you can make for it, it's not good enough to stand on it's own.

Yeah, we're pretty late in the game for anything drastic. It's too bad. We may not have time anymore to get it changed, but I see bad things in the game's future if we don't. The game may not collapse completely, but I don't see it being the glorious return of Lord British if it stays in. It will be a niche of a niche game, and that just seems like wasted potential.

We wouldn't have gotten a "Give us 3 more, and we're focusing on combat" hangout if they went completely unheeded. Progress has been made. Being civil, continuing to stand our ground, and stating clearly, without personal attacks, what the problem is and why it's a deal breaker is all we can do. If you invested money in this, stand up for that if nothing else. You bought your ticket for admission to the show, use it.

We're all tiered of the fight. And a lot of people who don't like the system are just walking away. They've stopped coming. They've stopped trying. I was one of them, only through continued contacts from people like ByTor did I come back. If you know someone who dropped, ask them to come back for R20. Get them to give that release a try and speak their mind about it just one more time.

It's the wrong audience on a lot of levels. Garriott devotees don't want just 'a game'. And that is definitely this. It's a kitchy mechanic, and really feels like 4th Ed D&D stuff in terms of staying true to the game's base. Unfortunately, Portalarium doesn't have the capital to pull a 5th edition if this tanks, and the game is getting branded with the system now. Today.

On top of that, it's an action game with a really turn based mechanic. People who like card games often aren't into this kind of moving, action based, game. I think there are things each could borrow from each other, but I think the execution of this combination is inelegant at best.

Examples:

Where are the cards about deck manipulation? Let me steal an opponents card, see their hand, or force them to discard some cards? Where are the cards that let me discard some of my own for more interesting powers?

Where is the true deck building element? Most card games work on a scarcity model. Getting rare cards, or high power cards, is something up to you to make happen. Imagine trainers who teach you some things when you go to them, but you don't know what they think you'll need to learn next? It's like opening a booster pack when you get enough XP. Sure, you can pick a sword guy, or magic guy, but that's all you can do to limit what you can learn next. THAT would be an interesting in character bit of random that I could relate to. Now you're building a character and a fighting style on what the world hands you.

They chose to go Dominion based, and not Magic the Gathering, in their main flavor. Wrong choice. Dominion is a race against yourself in play style. Most points when time runs out wins. You're rarely interacting with opponents in Dominion. Magic, on the other hand, is directly an adversarial experience. You're messing with their stuff, as they're messing with yours.

The way decks are played is an important difference too. That magic is a full hand that empties as you play it means you can plan ahead turns and set yourself up for moves. Dominion is hand by hand. Do what's best in the moment with no long term plans. That doesn't mean there is no skill, you still have to make choices on the fly, but it isn't really keeping me invested.
If they went with a more magic like drawing system, they could have skills that manipulate that as well. Cards that let you draw 2 instead of just one on your next fly.

I could go on, but I'm already rambling. Long and the short of it is this isn't even the best deck combat available. Would I play the best one if it existed? No. Because I'm part of the first audience. A garriott backer that feels if I have all the things needed to use a skill my character has trained in, I should get to. Plain and simple. Anything else is bad world building, and forcing game elements at the cost of immersion. If I wanted that, I'd go play any other game out there.

 

Shrouds combat system is not well. Its been lying in a hospital bed dying of every pathology known to man whilst a few high profiles stand around the bedside chanting: "your not going to die, you'll recover. you'll recover."

 

Sorry to hear to hear that you lost your patience Sir Hemlock. Just wondering why you are here? Are you waiting for single player offline days?

 

Of all the descriptions of combat I've heard, this one is pretty spot on, especially for me.

 

1. It's fun.
2. It makes you think, calculate, and plan when building a deck.
3. It's an aspect of the game one can take satisfaction in .. especially when in pvp and a player defeats someone 20 levels above him/her. .
4. Lots of customization
5. It's a great way to access many different abilities without having to use even more UI, while also avoiding the feeling of a card game.
6. It doesn't feel like your always always watching cool down timers.
7. It's immersive
8. It doesn't feel like an arcade game
9. Yes it is still a hot bar but now it's an innovative one that keeps you awake rather than putting you to sleep.

 

1. Subjective. I obviously don't agree.
2. No more so than thinking when doing a standard skill build. You're estimating need of those skills, and likely hood you'll have the opportunity to use them.
3. That's true without decks.
4. Again, no more so than a good skill tree.
5. Does less UI matter if we have to pay more attention to it? Also, it feels a lot like a card game.
6. Really? Instead you're watching quick time events pop up.
7. Immersion is when the UI feels like part of the game world. Where the controls, interface and in game mechanics all jive and make sense. There is zero reason my heal isn't available to me beyond "because the mechanics said no."
8. Neither do a lot of things. But this actually feels closer to it than many other systems.
9. Only until you get the hang of it, and then the lack of planning means you're not setting up for complicated encounters, just ramming through what you have. All battles will feel the same eventually exactly because of the randomness.

 

Well since I disagree with all of your opinions then we will just to agree to disagree.

 

YOU ARE KIDDING , RIGHT?
Immersive? fun? awake? really?
Subjective 100% = irrelevant 100%
I tend to post my opinion based on objective statements.
It is not fun , you find it fun....... consider that there is a big difference....
It is not immersive, you find it immersive, yea again a big difference...
It keeps YOU awake, but not me, you don't need to thing for me, again a big difference.....

 

I just thought how much this reminds me of the Google Bookmarks update, how much it sucked. It was clunky and unnecessary. Some people loved it, but ultimately it did the exact same thing the previous bookmark manager did (create bookmarks, manage folders, names of bookmarks, etc.) with simply more input and less shortcuts to make it simple and straightforward.

Card combat still does the same thing hotbar combat does - you press hotkeys on a hotbar to initiate an attack - but you're just hitting more of the buttons to do so. I don't feel it brings anything new to the scene aside from more randomness (yes, we know it's less random than pre-R18, but that's only because it's more akin to a locked hotbar in function than before - again, showing why locked hotbars are inherently "good"). It doesn't make combat feel more intuitive or more engaging; ArcheAge combat was engaging because not knowing your surroundings or vertical options or your opponent or their skills or your skills or BLINKING meant you died.

In short, it emulated the panic and intensity of real combat better than this garbage. Anyone with a martial arts background, particularly in weapons (HEMA, SCA, whatever), knows losing focus or focusing on someone's sword for a split second could mean you don't take in all the biomechanic subtleties that betray a coming attack. That quarter second means you got hit in the head because your parry didn't come online just right to deflect the attack enough. In essence, you're combating someone (ie, your opponent), not something (in this case, the UI).

So while I (and just about everyone else here) will agree that a straightforward hotbar isn't the wave of the future, it's how that hotbar is used that determines interaction, excitement, and intensity in a fight, which relies much more on skills and abilities, tactical options, environment diversity, item and gear variety, as well as tempo in a fight, and far less whether or not my skill is available or I'm managing a deck at a trainer in town. Because at the end of the day, you still have a hotbar, you still have "cooldowns", it's still "button-mashing" (arguably moreso with this system), and fast/twitch-oriented players will still have the advantage - it does nothing to change those elements that opponents of traditional hotbars vilify.

 

We don't have to. You could try and back that up with something. I'm presuming your opinion is based on reasons beyond the whim of the moment. If you believe those things at least share why, or how, you got there.

I think you're also missing my first argument where I pointed out that "it's new" is the go to response. Even if I suddenly believe those things to be true, they obviously aren't being delivered on enough to be noteworthy until other points are shot down.

 

Accepting bids....
How many SMORPG games in the future will copy Deck system ?

 

I tend to post my opinion based on my opinion. . Is that not what this medium is for? You want to call my opinions subjective. .that I don't have a problem with because that's what opinions are. .so how is stating the obvious helping you? Your opinions are just as subjective as mine are. If you were posting opinions in an objective manner wouldn't you be stating facts? So if you are stating facts then they aren't opinions. I however wouldn't call your opinions irrelevant because unlike you I can deal with the fact that not all people feel the same way as I do.

 

It actually reminds me of chronicals of Narnia. Lewis told Tolkien that people don't need that much attention to a fantasy story to do well, and set out to prove his point. And while a lot of people liked those books, I'm not seeing Narnia lego sets at target.

 

I already give you a list of 9 reasons why I like the system, and you disagreed with them all with your opinions. .and I disagreed with your opinions so. . . what more is there to do but agree to disagree? Just because you disagree with my 9 reasons I like the system doesn't mean I don't feel that way.

Plus I'm not missing your first argument where you pointed out that "it's new" is a go to response. . I'm just ignoring it because I didn't make that argument. I don't argue arguments that I didn't. . argue. . .

 

Can you mark any of my opinions as subjective please?

Then say it is fun for you, don't say its fun, that is confusing because its not fun for everyone, that's why I marked the BIG difference.....

 

All opinions are subjective. .if they weren't subjective they wouldn't be opinions.

I will say that it is fun if I believe it is fun. If I have to clarify that I'm posting my own opinion as opposed to speaking for everyone then you are looking too deep into this. .

 

Ok, let it be then..
Deck System is not fun at all......
Now, that is my subjective opinion.....