1. Here you will find official announcements and updates. These announcements are also linked in the Official SotA Discord server.
    We encourage comments from the community! To keep the announcements official, we ask that comment threads be created in the General forums for player input.

                                                 Thanks!

Upcoming Economic Balance Changes

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Sep 9, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mass

    mass Avatar

    Messages:
    1,223
    Likes Received:
    2,513
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just to throw another monkey wrench into this discussion:

    On our player market forums, I saw a request for crafters to make a set of high end armor. A response was 'sure, but not for gold as I have no use for gold, only real money currency'. So, 90% are too poor to play, 10% have nothing they want to buy with all of their gold, and if the above becomes a trend, people may not even do business with you with in game currency.

    I see a problem and I don't see the solution. The Dev's have a huge challenge here.
     
  2. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    Part of the problem is that you can't just make a suit of armor to spec. You have to go through dozens of random pieces until you get everything with just the right bonuses. So this idea of requesting someone to make you a full set of armor is just totally broken right now. I could see why someone would want cash for that (I don't condone that though.)

    I tried to make a pair of boots recently... had to make over twenty before I got a set that had the enchantments on it that I wanted... so how much is that pair really worth if I had wanted to sell it????
     
    Elwyn, Mac2, Vermine and 4 others like this.
  3. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    :eek:~It's a Scary thought I Know~:confused:
    But what monster in this game has not been solo defeated?
    Do we want all sheep in the world to slaughter? Who says something that's difficult to solo defeat has to be defeat able 100% of the time? Hans Solo even had to leave the beast on the asteroid alive and admit defeat. Should the ego be fed by slaughter alone?
    Offline has no economy needs other than being challenging, yet it's our online content that may need to humble many of it's solo egotist's ways of complete domination.

    Be Brave...
    [​IMG]
    I know it may sound scary to some egos, yet this is where the plateau meets the edge of the map. A gold grinder needs some bones or it's just a gold grinder and not a barrier or much of a challenge when it's repeatable.
    There should be some things to be avoided by the weak as well as the strong. That's what mountains are o_O...
    ~Time Lord~;)
     
  4. mass

    mass Avatar

    Messages:
    1,223
    Likes Received:
    2,513
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But, like, shouldn't everything be able to be priced in 'in-game' currency? Even if it's millions of gold, there should be some price tag in in-game currency that tempts a crafter. If not, then gold pieces as currency is broken.
     
  5. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    I agree 100% the problem is there's not much to temp a crafter in game right now because crafting is so broken econ wise. I'm just dumping all my 'misguided' crafting attempts on my vendor while trying to make that one boot that I really want... so who's going to buy all that crap I stuck out there? I can put a million gold price tag on something that took me thirty tries to make it just right.. but nobody will buy that for that price.

    The prices people are willing to spend in game don't match what it currently takes to craft something usable.
     
    Matt Harris, Vermine, Aldo and 2 others like this.
  6. Roycestein Kaelstrom

    Roycestein Kaelstrom Avatar

    Messages:
    4,627
    Likes Received:
    10,229
    Trophy Points:
    153
    That would depends on how much you are selling the junk ones for. I am willing to buy multiple pieces of equipment if the price is right. While I may not pay 1 mil for +8 equipment. I am willing to pay 500-2k gp for a +4 stuff that might not have the best quality. That price would not be too bad for me since I can make about 10k GP a day playing casually.

    Making it so that crafter and cherry picking what bonus wouldn't help with the economy. Down along the road, the folks with cheapest resources will always beat the price of the competitor. Making it so that crafting cannot be done by everyone wouldn't do much either since some big guilds will eventually pool a resource to get couple dedicated guys to be their in-house crafters, so they wouldn't have to buy equipment from other folks.

    I still think the income of average players play more factor here. Once people have more liquid cash to spare, they will be more willing to buy goods from other people. For instance, I have stopped mining silver myself because I would rather spend time killing stuff elsewhere for GP and buy the ore/ingots from someone else since the current price is something I can afford for the moment.
     
    Time Lord and ldykllr like this.
  7. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    Hate to quote myself but I wanted to expand on this...
    Port's fix for this is to sprinkle around a few 100 gold a day to players, to do what with? Buy crap nobody still wants? Instead they should be fixing crafting to make it really viable. Let us have a chance to craft the exact item someone has requested.. or that we want to sell. Port thinks crafting is a gold faucet... I don't agree at all. If it worked properly it would be a gold transfer. NOBODY wants to buy crappy enchanted items. Give us the ability to put the enchantments we want on items to sell. Then increase the breakage, and get rid of CotA's for repair... make the repair skill mean something.
     
  8. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    I've got a ton of stuff in that range... but nobody is interested because all the enchantments are wrong. And besides, it's still selling at a huge loss. So why would I really want to push that kind of econ model?

    Actually it would. It's not a gold faucet that Port claims... it's a gold Transfer... no new gold is created. So it does not hurt the econ.

    I see it more as Play Time being an issue. Casual vs Hardcore. (I'm in the middle as I tend to binge play after a few days or week off). I don't make a ton of money off my sale of crafted items... (not counting the pledge items I've sold). I make more off the loot I sell when I'm out gathering all my materials to craft with. But that only comes about when I PLAY. I said it before in another thread, just going by average gold amounts tells us nothing. Chris should have stated how much time those at the top 10% have played too. The analysis he did is bogus otherwise. We don't know if they struck it rich grinding loot... or selling high dollar items, selling ores, or selling CotA's.
     
  9. Roycestein Kaelstrom

    Roycestein Kaelstrom Avatar

    Messages:
    4,627
    Likes Received:
    10,229
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I don't know where your shop is, so I wouldn't be able to browse your selection, yet. Have you been advertising it somewhere?

    How much effort or initial cost to make the items aren't really the buyers's concern. They would just buy what they can afford or what they really want/need. So it is up to the seller to decide how much they want to sell or just keep the items for future usage.

    Yes, it's a gold transfer, not injection to the circulation. However, if everyone all buys +8 STR suit from Budner and nobody buys a set from other crafters because somehow he can sell it for 1/2 a price. How would cherry picking the item help? Which is why I pointed it out that in the long term, the folks who can obtain cheapest resources will beat the competitors.

    In any case, I'm not saying that crafting is perfectly fine or economy is good as is. It definitely needs more rebalance and also more time for people to adjust to the latest change. My point is to make counter argument on the proposal that cherry picking item attribute and bar everyone from being able to craft items would really help crafters in the long term.

    P.S. Btw, are you the fisherman guy from UOAC?
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  10. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    :oops:~Targeted Meaningful Crafting Intent~
    [​IMG]
    Our crafters are currently all blind... o_O

    I agree, randomness is not something I want in crafting. I like the randomness of failing, yet it's the randomness of the desired effect, "the targeted effect", that needs to be in the hands of the player. The degree of success can be random, but I just can't see not knowing what you are making because it just doesn't make good realistic sense.

    We don't randomly make things for the add-on store, everything in there is made with intent.
    So, I agree, take the market objective out of the AI's hands and into the player's hands so they can better target what sells.
    ~Time Lord~;)
     
  11. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    I think that's my whole point... I can't make what they need or want because the system is random so I'm stuck selling crap that nobody wants.

    If I can undercut someone's +8 suit with my half priced one... what does the buyer care... nothing... he gets a deal.. that other crafter needs to find a way to lower his costs. So I don't see what your issue is here. Getting rid of the randomness does not impact any of this. It allows crafters to work on an even footing... Does Nike make shoes at random sizes? No they make specific items... and other makers can either compete with them or parish... That's how the econ should work. Crafters can't make a living under your model if they are stuck with unsellable inventory.
     
  12. Roycestein Kaelstrom

    Roycestein Kaelstrom Avatar

    Messages:
    4,627
    Likes Received:
    10,229
    Trophy Points:
    153
    But isn't the whole point of the proposal is to allow crafters to make a living? Nike is able to make billions because they can secure cheap resources and labors to make shoes in mass production for cheaper prices. Uncle Bob Shoemaker wouldn't survive by trying to make a pair of shoes that give the same feeling and sell for the same price as Nike. If only the big guys will be the only group that survive and the rest who couldn't keep up will perish anyway, then why bother spending significant amount of time changing the system at all when there are still many other things to work on?
     
    cartodude and Time Lord like this.
  13. mdsota152

    mdsota152 Avatar

    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    2,047
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia
    I agree... it's about crafters making a living... but do Nike or the local shoemaker have to deal with random shoe sizes, random colors, random styles?:D My parent live in a small town, one of their best friends ran a small shoe shop on main street... Walmart moved in... he continued to run his store just fine until he retired a couple of years ago. But neither had random inventory to deal with.

    The small guy will always have to compete with the big guy... what does randomness have to do with this? If anything the big guy can afford more random crap... more precise merchandise will benefit the small guy ... it did in the shoe store... he catered to just what the folks in town wanted... Walmart went for the mass <shotgun> approach.
     
  14. racerx

    racerx Avatar

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Well I'll just say these are all valid points. The devs have their work cut out for them either way. And we all know whatever they decide on isnt going to please everybody....just the nature of things. But I know we can ALL agree that keeping the current system isnt working. So...Good luck devs o7
     
    Aldo, Time Lord and cartodude like this.
  15. Grim Future

    Grim Future Avatar

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    3


    This is pretty much just reality, and how things work.

    Economics aren't mystical... it all works in very simple and predictable ways.

    Let me quote a particular line again:
    "There will always be a best way to make money, and the 1% will find it and use it whatever it is every time its changed."

    I'm not a rich guy... but nonetheless... this is just how things work.

    I'm all for the devs changing things to make the game better...
    but guys who know how to make money will always make money.


    And fyi... if I craft an expensive piece of armor... I don't go out looking for a poor guy to sell it to.
    :)
     
    4EverLost, Aldo and Time Lord like this.
  16. SabeSr

    SabeSr Avatar

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    916
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Paradise, Florida
    I have posted things numerous times that would resolve this issue but since I don't use tact I get ignored.

    The cost of burn mats (NOT controlled by supply and demand and regional economy despite what some people seem to think) is absurd and leaves only the wealthy involved with producing items via crafting... which causes the price of crafted items to be way beyond the reach of the average player... reduce burn mats bring more people into the low end crafting and the cost of low end quality gear will drop thus you will see sales at vendors.

    QUESTS!!!! you can't create a multiplayer game without questlines... we have 3 (let me say this in more simple terms... THREE) questlines... and you actually wonder over there at portolium why average new players dont have any gold?

    CREATE questlines... THOUSANDS of them... short and sweet that build up over time to be complex... build them around CLASSES... give the "mage" types a long questline that slowly gives out kick-butt wands or staves... (GIVE A CHOICE IN REWARD ITEM EACH QUEST) let us pick a wand or a staff or a robe or really cool wizards hat (with magic bonus based on questlines) Fire questline... Life questline... Etc., all master trainers should have virtually endless questlines... starting at LEVEL (I said it... LEVEL) ONE... so when we find the master they send us out on a level appropriate quest with a level appropriate reward item...

    AND GIVE GOLD for these new quests...

    If you need help... CREATE a method for player designed questlines that those wealthy players can create... and make it so when people complete a quest we create for them we get a reward we need... like make them gather up some special drop from a creature that only drops once per player per month... so basically I'm sending out low level players to gather mats for me that I need a dozen of to create a special magic item that I can only craft on a new moon at midnight at the forge in the bottom of Hilt fortress...

    You Dev's get the point?

    I've stated these ideas and dozens others that would solve your issues... but you don't bother to read forum suggestions... HIRE A FORUM READING DUDE (or Dudette) similar to Berek who can read ideas and pass the really good ones onto you guys... The backers have been making suggestions for years, try reading them... we are gamers... some of us have been gaming longer then some of you Dev's have been out of diapers... (NO OFFENSE) but we know games, we know great ways to balance one... As far as I'm concerned this post is silly... you've had the answers thrown at you for years you just haven't bothered to search your player(knowledge)base.

    I'm leaving it short... search my long suggestion posts from months ago... you will see solutions for your issues.

    BTW who's bright idea was it to only have gold coins... what happen to silver and coppers? Add silvers (20 per gold) at the very least even if you don't add coppers... it will help you tweak pricing.

    But hey what do I know I'm just some dork with a keyboard...
     
    Zader, Irongron, Kambrius and 4 others like this.
  17. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    Basic flanking, it's a standard tactic SabeSr ... I think that's still included in most basic training somewhere :p
    There's only around 60 Mil of liquid coin in the economy, which means it's not as bad I thought it was, but is a very small "Micro Economy".
    Some guy just spent 3mil buying land deed lottery tickets and Chris blurted that monetary info out ;)

    I think they have it well in hand because we're all going to begin eating soon.
    Also "I told you so's" are kind of lame :p
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    Tibs, Grim Future and Ravicus Domdred like this.
  18. Mirjhaf Uth'Mathar

    Mirjhaf Uth'Mathar Avatar

    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    @SabeSr

    Terrific Post..
    +1 here
     
    racerx and Time Lord like this.
  19. Talewin

    Talewin Avatar

    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    8
    60 mil gold in game..... now how much of that 60 mil is held by people who have vendors in owls head? I'm guessing alot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    Time Lord likes this.
  20. racerx

    racerx Avatar

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I second that...straight shooter, I admire that
     
    Time Lord likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.