New NPC Conversation Window - Feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Jan 14, 2017.

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  1. Gix

    Gix Avatar

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    @Vladamir Begemot there are too many edge cases for your design method to work. I generally don't like how @Lum the Mad approaches things but he actually gave you legit reasons as to why you're suggestion simply doesn't work... not to mention you also have to consider other things like screen resolution and aspect ratio.

    It's anything but "easy" or "simple".

    The MMO part has nothing to do with it, primarily because:
    • Most modern MMOs phase their NPCs per player during conversation. So having them move/turn around is hardly an issue. The way Elder Scrolls Online handles its NPC dialogue, for example, is no different than Skyrim's.
    • Plenty of multi-player capable games (like the Neverwinter Nights series) do just fine without being full fledged MMOs. So having "other players around" isn't the issue.
    What people don't seem to grasp is that the problem isn't the presentation like frame borders or camera angles... it's the clarity of the text and how the player interacts with that dialogue; the latter being much more important.

    • Ultima 4 worked because NPCs spoke in short sentences, had very few keywords and those keywords themselves were short. It set for a quicker pacing more inline with video games while still offering something deeper.
    • Ultima 7 (despite its horrible, horrible font) and the Elder Scrolls series (Morrowind) worked because the keywords don't give you conversational whiplash and the NPCs aren't constantly confused by what you're trying to tell them. Morrowind gets bonus points for having both a list of keywords and being able to click directly on the dialogue (SotA is trying to do that).
    • The Baldur's Gate and Fallout series worked because player skills had an impact on your conversation and the dialogue was much more scripted.
    You were immersed into these games because the various components for dialogue weren't distracting.

    Functionality aside, there's also the issue of distinguishing quests from gossip and being able to tell what's a bug and what's intended.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  2. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    They can't move the camera down 17% from it's current location? Thus raising the character a little higher on the screen? This is locked down for good?

    I do get the whole bit with the UI, that's why it was the first several pages of posts, complete with a bunch of pictures saying "Hey let's make the UI readable!" Clarity, good viewing, large enough text to read without squinting.

    Those comments were followed up by "It's impossible for us to make anything nice because we can't handle the camera."

    Ok, shift the camera a tiny bit, I'm not saying rewrite Unity. Most camera gameobjects have fields that the artist can adjust in editor, Unity is fabulous that way.

    If a mid sized character is 1.5 meters (the usual Unity size, adjust if different) then move the camera position -.25 on the Y axis. Give it a shot, you can't make the dialog any less visually compelling than it already is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  3. mercster

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    Or, you know, just ignore surrounding geometry. Fade to black, fade back in with speakers in view, at whatever angle you like, with some generic blurred out background showing the surrounding geography "in general".
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    First person is a different camera angle entirely. Place the UI where you want it.

    Transparent or opaque, having the characters on the bottom half of the screen is just bad.

    We are literally talking about moving the camera a tiny bit from it's current location, a 2 minute change.

    Do that and you now have some room for a UI as well, super handy side effect of making your shots look good.
     
  5. Vladamir Begemot

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    Everything that happens before will keep happening. Until they implement an advanced camera system, as I linked to, it'll keep happening.

    So why not adjust the current system the tiny amount to hit the sweet spots of scene composition? As you can see I already gave up on the nice framed close ups. Take another look at the new pictures and see how little the camera has to be shifted in order to make a good composition. Edge cases will remain, but they won't get worse.
     
  6. Vladamir Begemot

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    Ok, to get this back on track

    - We need a good, clear, usable UI for quests.

    - If you think it might be possible to shift the camera a little, you're going to make nicer conversation visuals and free up some screen space for the UI.

    Done.
     
  7. WrathPhoenix

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    I dont usually get involved in these discussions but i'm 100% with a lot of these folks included @mercster - I like this on the side, I love the idea of morrowing inspiration. It is a good approach i think will work better functionally and aesthetically vs. the words across the bottom. I was actually quite shocked to see the words at the bottom...had to ask why?
     
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  8. yarnevk

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    While you think avatars at the bottom of the screen under the text window is bad, someone who reads comic books with overhead speech bubbles is going to think that is the perfect setup. Most of what you want is artistic opinion and not even possible to do without stage actors following stage direction to their blocking tape as Lum already explained, you would never be happy with any programmer's cinematic composition and even that would require taking away player agency by forcing them into a placement pose they do not want to be in. If I want to sit at the bar and have a beer while I converse with the bard and barkeep, let me without forcing me off the stool into a three-way posed selfie shot.

    The neural network required to frame a cinematic composition is so vast that it requires humans to go to film school and practice the craft for decades, and that is with their eye on the viewfinder. Now combine that with the reality of an AI that is not even capable of face and object recognition to even have the information needed to process the scene? (Let alone understand natural language converstions!)

    There is a very simple solution to this, insist on complete camera and window control during conversations, and in single player you could even have a console to move the NPC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  9. yarnevk

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    Because an old CGA Ultima did it that way....it was posted as well as Morrowind/Skyrim vertical list as inspiration by the devs. I have yet to see anyone argue for the horizontal quad scroll list for nostalgia reasons, I think there is more supporting the vertical scroll list and in-context clicking of Morrowind.

    Even better than Morrowind the RP chatters can use the keyword list as the hint list for writing their own phrases, eliminating much of their frustations. If they know 'keep' is a dialogue keyword , then they know not to say "your work must keep you busy" and get confusing responses that it is "up the hill"
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
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  10. WrathPhoenix

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    I know they did this. I know the inspiration behind it being there, but of all the things to borrow from those games and their functionality that one is baffling... Too many words can be in the database for an NPC and as @Womby said before... Scrolling them would be WAY too much of an irritation. Id prefer a list off to the side that - if it got too long - i could hover mouse over and mouse wheel to scroll up and down to choose the right keyword.

    The technical approach being used is one that I like. The actual design of the words list and where it is, I take issue with.
     
  11. WrathPhoenix

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    Also... the text color of the names of people speaking along in local chat really needs to change. I Still have serious trouble reading the dark names against the dark background.... that's just a bit of a problem with the chat in general and not necessarily NPC chat.
     
  12. yarnevk

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    Let me quote this as I think people are assuming scroll arrows implies scrolling mouse wheel and arrow key support. Absolutely want all three interactions as long as it is not as bad as the console port abomination that PC Skyrim interface is! So many times it gets off track and I click what I was not hovering, or worse backout of the list (SKSE64 patch is not out yet for Skyrim Special Edition to fix it)

    With transparent resizing window I can make the list as tall as the screen if I want, with multi monitor support even default it to the side monitors.
     
  13. Sir Cabirus

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    This could easily fixed by a coloured background, which is one of my suggestions ;)
     
  14. Ancev

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    Would be nice if there was an easy to use text zoom feature like ctrl+mouse wheel up and down, or ctrl - and + or a visual cue with + and - on the new chat interface itself
     
  15. Gix

    Gix Avatar

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    I'm arguing that 17% of whatever isn't enough to suddenly make the dialogue system work... yet at different resolutions and aspect ratios, it can be large enough to make it look worse than it already is... making your efforts pointless.

    Like this?

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Vladamir Begemot

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    That looks pretty cool.

    I don't think either of us can tell unless we get to play with their Dev tools. I think that I've beat the drum enough though, if they don't want to try that camera shift, they won't. If they do it's probably already done, as that kind of stuff is pretty fast in Unity.
     
  17. Dartan Obscuro

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    I really like that. Though I feel conflicted because I also like the idea that talking to an NPC shouldn't be that different than talking to another player.
     
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  18. Gix

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    That's a screenshot of Guild Wars 2's dialogue... it also supports some dialogue choices. *Stares at @Lord_Darkmoon * it's an MMO :p

    I'm always in the mindset that less is more and that consistency should overrule any other design. It sets a good tempo for a game.

    With that said, something like the Guild Wars 2 screenshot would work okay for Shroud of the Avatar but then you'd have to content yourself with the possibility of being attacked (or pick-pocketed). Because it introduces more edge cases than solutions, I wouldn't go that route if I was Portalarium.
     
  19. mercster

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    Yep exactly like that...I knew another game did it but couldn't remember, that's GW2 right?
     
  20. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    To be clear it was @oneandonly that wrote the camera positioning code.
     
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