Four Years (or, Why free passes re: development have to stop)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Canterbury, Mar 11, 2017.

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  1. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

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    Get In MY BELLY!
    Does anyone know how many of the original backers have left the game or even a ballpark in general how many people have left? I see that Sir Cabrias is thinking about leaving and he was here from the beginning also. I could rattle of tons of names but I do not have the patience to do it. So anyone have a number?
     
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  2. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    Some time ago I wrote a post pointing out the fallacy of drawing a false dichotomy between the perpetual complainers and the perpetual cheerleaders.

    As with so many things in life, the reality is that the vast majority of people fall somewhere in between. Yet those in the extremes are the "loudest" and therefore make it appear as if they are in the majority.

    I see that little has changed...

    While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it is inaccurate, and sometimes downright disingenuous to set about creating an illusion that more people agree with one's view than is actually the case.

    As for me, I give the dev team a B- so far. A respectable grade, but with ample room for improvement.

    While I don't know much about game development, I do know a thing or two about front end web development and am currently working on a very simple two-page website that is about 90 days behind schedule. I can only imagine what it takes to execute a project on the scale of this game.
     
  3. jammaplaya

    jammaplaya Avatar

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    I think it's the format that's the problem. Try putting your woes in the form of a suggestion on how they can achieve what you want.

    A good analogy for this is a work crew standing around a job site, discussing the situation. The discussion is helpful, to a point, but really what's needed is someone to step in and suggest an action that will help achieve progress.

    It's similar to moving from Alpha into Beta, in a sense.
     
  4. Vallo Frostbane

    Vallo Frostbane Avatar

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    I feel the OP.

    But I would say 4 years are still in scope for the development of a game of this size... that is more or less an indie title.
    That being said there are those people that defend the game at all cost. Fortunately Darkstarr himself once said that those people are not the ones
    one should listen to. Critics are what make you strong.

    Haters gonna hate and you shouldn't waste time on them, but I think they realized as one could see in the telethon that they alienated some of their customers and are reaching out again. LB did that in a very good way and it was received positively by most outside of this forum.

    Being a fanboy is the same as being a hater in terms of bringing this project to success.
     
  5. Kara Brae

    Kara Brae Avatar

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    I haven't read all the replies, but I don't understand how the OP's suggestion could help in any way. I personally enjoyed "the ride" (playing the game while it was under development) and am not especially eager to see the game finished, but even if I were angry about the long development time, I don't understand how I would help the game finish more quickly by expressing my anger to the devs frequently. My impression is that they are already working as hard as they can as is, and I think any distraction would only serve to slow them down. Aside from that it would give me heartburn :)
     
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  6. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    But... that's not what the OP is suggesting at all...?!? The OP is about the tendency on this forum to say everything's always fine and "situation normal" when, clearly, there are some topics that shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

    In other words, rather than always brush away issues (which is what the "free pass" bit is all about), have the courage to be polite, gracious, but still "call a spade a spade" as the old saying goes. Anything less is a disservice to all.
     
  7. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    Could somebody please point me to the part of telethon where this happens?
     
  8. Vallo Frostbane

    Vallo Frostbane Avatar

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    Check the posts of Richard on the shroudoftheavatar reddit.

    It was pretty much in the beginning of the telethon.
     
  9. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    And just to say because people don't want to be abusive to the devs, it does not mean we cannot provide the feedback in ways that promote improvements. Believe me I am a strong supporter never waivering and I definitely have problems with some decisions being made. Especially some of the cheap repetitive workarounds that get done. This drives me crazy. Oh let's add a control point everywhere since we have that tech and I say nooooo let's not. And let's use the same old housing and assets in every scene but change their order or color. Yikes no let's not. Not to say we havent made huge progress in the last couple of releases on some of that;) . The difference in some people's discontent, frustration, and rage imo is their inability to never give up trying to participate and believe in this project and the development team. This development team will not stop putting their heart and soul into this project I know. When all is said and done and in the end of the battle to release some will love the game and some will not. As for me I will be here, and it is not that I have a nice pledge which I do and I could triple or quadruple the amount I spent right now in selling it, but no way do I want to. Like I said I'm here to keep on keeping on. ;). I will keep nagging umm I mean playing the game and providing feedback the whole way;)

    And the trial or free pass is not a good idea. Sota is not prepared for it imo. The devs mentioned it in the telethon. I am not in favor of it at this point

    Edited
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  10. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    Thank you for writing and, just to be clear, my OP is not about being abusive to anyone or expressing anger. Quite the opposite. And I realise you might be talking about things in a more general way, but I don't want to be associated with that kind of thing at all. I'm more about, rather than always brushing away issues (which is what the "free pass" bit is all about), having the courage to be polite, gracious, but still "calling a spade a spade" as the old saying goes. You know? :)

    And I think what you're describing about how you approach some of the situations and topics that you feel strongly about is pretty much what I'm advocating in my OP. I think we're very much on the same page. At least on the same chapter!
     
  11. Kara Brae

    Kara Brae Avatar

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    I know you are speaking about the general behavior of people in the forum and not just about me, but if you take the time to look at my posts you will find very many which voice criticism about the game, even to the extent where I voiced my fear that I would be forced to stop playing if changes were not made. I have been satisfied with the way these points of contention have been fixed or changed and see no need to artificially rile myself up to speak negatively about the game as a whole.

    At the same time I have to say that my perception of what goes on in these forums differs very much from your perception. You say that the "tendency on this forum is to say everything's always fine" but my perception is that most threads that aren't questions discuss needed improvements and feedback on the most recent changes, not all of it positive. If you look closely at posts by people who are known to post their opinions in a positive manner you will find criticism and suggestions for improvement.

    You seem to be frustrated in this particular thread about the fact that the game hasn't been released yet as originally promised and at the push-back reactions to your opinion that players are giving the devs a "free pass". I can't speak for anyone else, but I neither share your frustration nor do I feel that the accusation of giving the devs a "free pass" is accurate. In addition, although I'm sure you meant to state your case in an objective manner, my sense of "giving the devs a free pass" is that it is mildly incendiary and neither very polite nor gracious. My immediate reaction was to push back, and maybe others feel the same.
     
  12. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    That's excellent, and something we'll talk about in the next point as well. Because here's the thing... I don't doubt people like you exist here on the forum. I do see the posts. But you aren't an example of how the majority act, to my mind.

    I've posted in too many threads, and read even more, where anyone with even the slightest bone of contention, or controversial comment, has been swamped by people who simply deny that person's POV. Who does that ultimately help?

    To continue what I was saying, like what I was discussing with Majoria, of course there are people who are on the same page as me. That said, I still thoroughly believe way more people take the, "everything's great!" approach on here.

    And again, to go back to the OP, I even understand why they do it. They don't want to be rude. They want to be glass half full. I get it. I don't think they are bad reasons in themselves; I just think they do a disservice to the wider debate.

    I appreciate you explaining your POV. I would first say that I'm not frustrated the game hasn't been released yet as originally promised. The original promise, after all, was a year after Kickstarter; I never regarded that as realistic.

    What I'm more frustrated with, if we're going to use that term, is that the game isn't where it should be after 4 years. There are game elements set up very early on that have barely changed at all over some years. I don't get that at all.

    Put another way, the game still feels pretty much the same to me as it did in some of the earliest builds. I know, and I see, stuff that's been added. But, to me, the overall feel hasn't progressed markedly from those rough first builds.

    The concept of the free pass meanwhile, is only as 'mildly incendiary' as one wants to take it. I mean it in a very straightforward way; ie: that by always saying everything's great, it doesn't give actual issues a chance to be discussed.

    Unless, of course, someone genuinely thinks everything is great, in which case I'd suggest to them that, clearly, even the devs don't think that's the case... and the proof of that pudding is that the game isn't officially launched yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  13. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    I backed during the kickstarter and I am still here. I'm have not been keeping track of the numbers as I have been enjoying playing SOTA. I hope this helps.
     
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  14. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    Since repeating oneself ad nauseum appears to be the standard operating procedure around here...

    It is counterproductive, and just plain wrong, to keep corralling everybody into either the "hater" or the "fanboy" group.

    This is a fallacious type of thinking called "false dichotomy" and apparently some people have not managed to elevate their cognitive skills to the level where nuance can be appreciated.

    The people who keep suggesting that criticism is not acceptable here in this forum are just plain wrong. It takes about 2 minutes of clicking around to prove the falsity of such a claim. It is so blatantly false that it causes me to wonder if those making the claim really believe what they are saying, or if they are just trolling.

    Similarly, one would be pretty hard-pressed to find a player who is *actually* a fanboy in terms of rising up to defend the dev team, no matter what. I can think of 3 or less people on this forum who might possibly quality for "fanboy" status.

    Everybody else is in the middle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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  15. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Serious question... Who would those people be?
    Same question.
     
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  16. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

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    Hegelian Dialectic? :)
     
  17. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    Yet- you keep making patently false claims about the amount of people who reject any criticism of this game out-of-hand.

    Please... Show us some data. What percentage of forum members active within the last week display the mannerisms of which you are lamenting?

    I am specifically referring to the "devs can do no wrong" attitude to which you refer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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  18. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Feel free to do so in a private message. I will keep the information confidential, and you'll not be violating any forum rules.
    I agree with your assessment, and I assume from the second half of your statement that I am then excluded from your list of three. Is that correct?
     
  19. Satan Himself

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    I don't know if SOTA is ahead of or behind schedule when compared to other games, other team sizes, and other levels of funding. Nor do I care.

    What I do know is that I came here about 2.5 years ago, logged close to 600 hours according to Steam, and finally just got tired of the game, sold all my pixels and stopped playing. The pace of development has been too slow IMO and many of the game mechanics have either not improved meaningfully or in some cases have gotten worse. Yes there has been progress in all sorts of areas but not enough to retain my personal interest.

    I feel his pain but disagree with the OP that we are enabling Port. I think Port is just constantly making adjustments in order to try to produce a better game. Which is fine. But they lost me and obviously others as well due to the pace of development. I'm sure they know that is a cost of "doing it right" as opposed to releasing too early.
     
  20. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    What would be your objective in this proposed exercise?

    You would be one of the three that "might possibly" qualify. Keywords being "might" and "possibly". ;-)

    Truth is- I can't think of one person who displays a "devs can do no wrong" attitude.

    But again... Not sure what you are getting at here...?

    Let's backtrack a bit... Do you feel the OP is making an accurate characterization of this forum? My impression from your first reply is that you disagree...
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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