Multiplayer rewards for storyline quests (SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bubonic, Sep 17, 2017.

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  1. Bubonic

    Bubonic Avatar

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    Well as long as u can't use the spyglass without that emote, it definitely qualifies... cause that's pretty useful.

    Lol
     
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  2. Traveller13

    Traveller13 Bug Hunter

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    Well, that is where you and I have differing view points. You ignored the experience award for completion of the quest, where I ignored the emote. The emote being useless to me. Emotes may be useful sometime in the future, if the developers set having to perform an emote to allow you to continue-- or something bad to not happen to you. I don't ignore useful items or experience, though.

    Anyway, story-wise, the emote may have been awarded by the NPC because she was happy her daughter was alive. She went from her entire family being destroyed to at least having the next generation back. Again, a different view from yours.
     
  3. Beaumaris

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    or maybe she actually hated the guy.
     
  4. rild

    rild Avatar

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    She's literally jumping for joy! Sure it straddles the line between metaphor and literalism, which is probably where the mixed signals or cheesiness are coming in, but what do you want? Should they be part of a traveling circus, a family of acrobats? Would that help the immersion? But then should the backflip only be performed in the proper RP context of circus performance? Are we questioning her skill level?

    The emotes in this game add so much flavor and expressiveness to characters that is missing in other games. It's reasonably to suggest more immersive quests, but this is hardly worth a twist in your knickers. The quest is one of the first and serves as a tutorial for the quest/journal system, character convos, and also the emote system! Isn't this the first emote introduced by the game? Zero hand-holding for newbies in an MMO does not work in this day with dozens of options.
     
  5. Black Knight

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    If you have kids, and have ever experienced that kind of sorrow, I don't think you'd find it quite as inappropriate.
    Then again every single person in the world reacts differently to extreme situations, so again even if you had the exact experience and still find in inappropriate - she might just be different.

    I find it to be quite realistic, and if I ever thought that it was intentional I'd commend the game for having complex emotions in at least one their NPCs.
    If immersion is such a big thing for you, maybe you should appreciate the fact that at least one NPC in game doesn't have the "standard® emotional behavioral pattern".
     
  6. Lord_Darkmoon

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    Really, I can't believe what I am reading here... That people really defend this... This is ridiculous. Sorry. But ok, if you want to have such things in the game, so be it. But remember that SotA will be judged for the "single-player narrative", too. And I never ever saw something like this in a single-player game. And I hope I never will.
     
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  7. Hornpipe

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    I remember that quest and yes, Abigail's reaction looked very strange. I know that middle age people did not feel the death as we do now (unfortunately, losing a child or a beloved was pretty common back in those days, especialy when you were poor) but she had no news from her family and she was probably hoping for everyone to be alive : her daughter AND her husband.

    Then, we hardly can believe that the outlander brings very good news to her. Someone is suddenly lost for her (except if she did not love her husband at all). Then, teaching how to do a backflip to the person who inform you of the death of your husband doesn't make sense to me. Even if she's obviously happy about her daughter's fate, I think she still has more important things to do than to show how to perform backflips in a refugiee camp, really. Also, as she wears a dress... well, you know what I mean.

    That said, this is just an isolated problem, to me. That's breaking immersion but that doesn't prevent any enjoyment on the long run, in my opinion. Sure, the emote reward has absolutely no interest when playing solo, actually, but this quest is offering classical rewards as well.

    The OP makes a good point about the emote learning mechanics in this game, however. Why some NPC can teach them ? Do we have a grand master with belching in the Epitath ? Do we have a grand master with hissing in Aerie ? Does that make any sense to limit the opportunities to learn a particular emote ? What's the purpose here ?

    And finaly, I'm still hoping that, one day, I will be able to see Charlotte and Abigail reunited again in Soltown, thanks to some new technology developped by Portalarium :p

    Really, this quest is emblematic of all the complaints one can have with story telling in SotA :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
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  8. liz_the_wiz

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    I thought her joy was from finding her child had not perished rather than loss of her husband as until the kids return she thought she had lost both. Therefore the joys of having your child returned would be the most current feeling on receipt of said sprog. (although at that age least it wont be demanding iphones, ipads and so on in game)
     
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  9. Hornpipe

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    That's highly debatable. I can't imagine a mother being joyful when learning about the sinister fate of her husband, even if her daughter is safe. Partialy relieved ok, but certainly not happy. Let's be serious for 2 seconds... If I was Abigail, the FIRST think I would think is : "How will I be able to discuss this with Charlotte ? How does she feels after seeing her father being immolated or savagely killed ?". Certainly not : "How will I manage to teach backflip to the person who saved my daughter from the fire ?". And furthermore, if I remember correctly (I could be wrong) Charlotte did NOT returned. Abigail did not meet her daughter since the attack. She only knows that she's safe with Edvard.

    But that's probably just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
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  10. Daxxe Diggler

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    I guess my question here would be: Is the main concern of this thread that an emote was the reward, or that some people think the type of emote rewarded was "tasteless"?

    My first reply here is regarding receiving an emote as a reward ------
    Although I play mostly in multi-player online mode most of the time ( I play offline mode to test things and to get stuff I'm unable to online) I still spend quite a bit of my online play time solo. I think they can be an acceptable reward for some small quests and even fun for someone playing alone. Sure, it's not a weapon or armor that can help me kill monsters with later on... but it's still something that can amuse me in this game world. In fact, the backflip emote is one of my favorite emotes and I use it quite often, even when I'm playing solo.

    And, in the case of this specific quest, I think her teaching you an emote is actually a good choice of rewards. I mean, she is a refugee who was forced out of her home to live in in a refugee camp with other survivors. She barely brought with her enough of her things to survive and likely could not do so without the help and generosity of others at the camp. If she had any trinkets or weapons or anything of value that she could give you as a reward... she probably would have already sold it to help her get by at the camp. I certainly wouldn't expect her to give me gold coins as a reward either. If she had given me anything of value, it would detract from the felling that she is struggling to survive here.

    So, IMO, her teaching me an emote was a smart choice by the quest developer. It's a reasonable offer that she could provide me based on her situation. And, it's something that I will carry with me forever in the game. I will always remember where I got it from whenever I use it and I will feel good for having helped save her daughter.

    Now, as to whether this particular emote is an appropriate reward for this NPC, given her situation, I will give my take on that too -----
    She was supposedly forced out of her home and lost contact with her family. As a parent, I know how finding out my child was saved from such a hopeless situation would be an extremely joyful occasion. I don't know that I'd actually be doing a backflip (at my age, it might not be such a good idea) but I would certainly be jumping for joy at least.

    It's been a long while since I completed this quest so I don't remember it perfectly, but I believe I finished this quest and got the emote reward for telling her I saved Charlotte... before ever discussing the fate of her husband. So, if my memory serves me correctly, then it would be perfectly fine for her to be joyful enough to do a backflip upon learning her child was saved (and before learning of her husband's death).

    Perhaps upon learning of her husband's fate, she should have also taught us a frown or crying emote? That might be the only negative thing I can say about this quest and it's reward.
     
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  11. Spoon

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    SPOILERS

    Problems with the Charlotte > Johan > Abigail questline:
    • Problem: Why didn't Edvard do anything before the Avatar shows up?
      When the player enters the scene you can hear the child from far away. Yet Edvard who has been there a while hasn't investigated the houses nor helped Charlotte. Then when the player shows up Edvard is more than capable at killing undead and rescuing Charlotte etc.
      Solution: Edvard was outside the gate and couldn't get in. Add dialog to Edvard about frustration hearing Charlotte but not being able to help. Remove the gate opening lever on the outside. If the player wants to get back in they can climb the wall and still get in the back way.
    • Problem: The scene conveys urgency but does not enforce it.
    • When the player arrives in the scene they get direct text telling them they are not safe and they need to escape. Yet this is a false urgency. The player can take as long time as they want and nothing changes. There are no undead at the back gate. The fire doesn't progress. Charlotte is in no more danger after hours of play than when you start the scene.
      Solution: Add spawn of undead outside the back gate so that the player can see them through the bars. Add objects that break after a while and write in chat that it breaks. Like crates inside the fire taking damage until it breaks when the avatar gets close.
    • Problem: Why is Charlotte calling for mom?
      So Charlottes mother wasn't with them and fled before/during the attack with the refugees. Charlotte is here with her dad who sends her upstairs.
      Solution: Charlotte should be calling for Dad not Mom. That also adds weight to finding him dead later.
    • Problem: The fire in the burning house that Charlotte is in does not feel immediate nor dangerous.
      When the player investigates the house there are still intact books, papers and wooden objects in the fire that shouldn't be. This breaks the feeling of immediacy on rescuing the child.
      Solution: Remove flammable objects in the fire, replace wooden mugs with ceramic etc, add objects that are charred and burned which we cannot pick up. Add objects that crash down or break when the player triggers them by being close.
    • Problem: Where is the undead that killed Johan.
      When the player investigates the house they find Johan dead on the floor and a note next to him. Yet there are no undead in the house, nor was Charlotte killed by a roaming undead.
      Solution: Either add a slain undead next to Johan /or/ preferably add a blockade to the door that the player has to break down to get into the house, enforcing that he was wounded before trying to hide in the house.
    • Problem: Charlotte isn't defending herself.
      When you meet Charlotte she is in the open and not hiding, she does not have a knife nor stick. Yet Charlotte grew up in a renaissance world filled with magic and dangers with a father who was a guard. They knew the undead were coming and that the situation was dire to hopeless. She should at the very least be hiding.
      Solution: Give Charlotte a useless childish weapon in her hand like a stick. Place her behind something which she has been hiding behind or in a closet or something. Preferably add something in the dialog where the avatar needs to make a decision whether to tell her sharply to stay right behind and let the avatar do the fighting or if the avatar doesn't then make Charlotte take more risks in the coming fight.
    • Problem: When Charlotte sees her dead father the player doesn't see any reaction.
      When Charlotte follows the player the player is leading the way. That means that the player is facing away from Charlotte and the only clue what drama is unfolding is in an off comment in the chat which is easy to miss. Lots of players never understand that Charlotte's father was the body on the floor.
      Solution: When the player goes down the stairs with Charlotte. Have her initiate NPC dialog. Give her a fitting emote of horror so that the player gets to feel something. Add dialog that enforces this feeling. Then let the player exit the dialog to continue.
    • Problem: Edvard doesn't acknowledge Charlotte's presence.
      When you talk to Edvard about weapons and fighting undead his dialog doesn't take Charlotte into account. Which to the player feels like a very prominent thing at that moment.
      Solution: Detect if the player has Charlotte, add dialog for Edvard to say a few words about keeping her safe behind the avatar.
    • Problem: After the bridge Charlotte distance herself from Avatar and Edvard.
      When they are over the bridge you can talk to Edvard, when you do Charlotte transfers to him. But she doesn't seem scared - she stands at a far distance to him closer to the wild than anything.
      Solution: Once transferred to Edvard, place Charlotte as close to Edvard as possible. This conveys fear but also the switch from the 'outlander' player to the more familiar looking bard.
    • Problem: Abigail doesn't react enough to Johan's death.
      If you rescued Charlotte then Abigail immediately stops mourning Johan and is happy instead. Even being flippant about it teaching the player an emote etc.
      Solution: Add a little ambiguity to Johan and Abigail's relationship with a backstory where he is bad for her and the story arc works fine. Where the child Charlotte is what she treasures. This adds grayscale and depth to the situation. Let Johan write in his last words that he regrets not being nicer or a better husband. Have Charlotte say that she loves dad even though mom doesn't. Have Abigail comment more with ambiguity about his loss.

    Although I stopped giving such feedback after they during a telethong specifically asked for NUX feedback for a specific release where they would review the new user experience, which prompted me doing this report:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ce-nux-spoons-qa-feedback-path-of-love.64099/
    Where the result can be seen here:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...s-qa-feedback-path-of-love.73009/#post-718111
    There was too much feedback in my feedback. Lesson learned, don't mix things intended for different parts of the dev team into the same report, and don't provide big reports on multiple issues regardless whether they request us to do them or not. Instead report issues seperate and with a limited focus.
    Hence why most of the graphic bugs in those pics can still be found.

    Well, at least I got this:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...in-isle-of-storms-is-gone-this-is-nice.95638/
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  12. Bubonic

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    @Spoon that was pretty awesome. I am humbled by the quality of that feedback. You just described a game I really want to play :p
     
  13. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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  14. Net

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    I think she could call for both parents. So after finding her dead father the player knows to look after her mother. Besides she is probably terrified enough to quite ignore the fact that mom is not already there.
     
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  15. Hornpipe

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    Really good feedback, @Spoon
     
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  16. Tiina Onir

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    @Lord British These are the types of suggestions that would really make the story be alive. I hope they are being heard.
     
  17. rild

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    PS I do think this is excellent feedback, and @Spoon gives us analysis in a digestible fashion.

    It's important to remember the improvement-over-time that is characteristic of SotA development so far & is their plan. Constructive feedback is useable, tho not always immediately actionable within dev schedule & budget.

    I'll admit, within my my
    I also agree it would be nice to hear from @Lord British &a other devs ok the subject of subtle & involved quests, not as a demand but as a request to touch base on the soul of the project, as it clearly is bothering some people.
     
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  18. Hornpipe

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  19. Spoon

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    I don't think it was this topic but rather the one refered to in the OP from last week.
    Edit see below I had missed the link.

    Continuing in the same vein as above, one of the issues that was brought up in the article was the multiplayer scenes limiting the quest results which is an old and dear discussion which I have had with the premium proponent of the offline game @Lord_Darkmoon on several occasions (and Rune74 before that). In those there has been a couple of solutions discussed over the years.

    • Problem: NPCs that should be affected due to quest progress must still be available in multiplayer.
      There are a couple of situations where quest progress should either move or remove a specific NPC, but since not all players have progressed to that point the NPC has to be kept in the scene or not added to the scene. Leaving the devs with the option of breaking immersion by keeping scene intact, or, limiting the quest writing and the story arcs to circumvent this.
      Solution: Add mini-sub-scenes where the NPC resides which can be made Single Player which depending on quest progress loads different versions. So that the NPC that needs to have a changing status resides in its own instance separate from the scene. This can be done with basements in cities, or caves in wilderness, or small rifts for the big plots.
      -For instance place the Ardoris bad guy could be moved to a basement, that way if he lives you load BasementA while if he is dead you load BasementB. Since the basement scene force Single Player then we can keep the consistency. Same thing for the Black Arrow questline where there could be a prison basement added to the guard tower. Where there could either be an NPC in the guard part of the basement, or after resolution an NPC in the prison part of the basement
      .
      .
    • Problem: If the scene is identical upon return the player feels that they have not had as much impact that the dialog hints at.
      There are a couple of narratives that would only work if the scene was a completely redone one when you return to that scene. Since we have the capability due to the dual map we should build such showcases which can make the player go WOW my actions had profound impact on this scene - it is completely different this time around.
      Solution: Create specific scenes (really small ones to save cost) with forced single player which showcase the great capabilities the dual map gives in changing scenes depending on state. If one such example was made for each of the three starter areas then that would cover all the players. Create maybe two to four versions of these small scenes so that player action can have complete impact.
      -For instance a farm location on the overland > First time you enter you find a conflict going on where you can interact with the factions > if the player helped the farm faction then in subsequent visits the farm is there and the NPCs can be interacted with (will cook you food or whatnot) > if the player either helped the attacking faction or if the player remained neutral then in subsequents visits the farm is burned down and wildlife roam the scene.
      -For instance an outpost on the overland > First time the outpost is under attack > if the commander survives then in subsequent visits the outpost is there with some NPC merchants etc > if the commmander dies then in subsequent visits the outpost is damaged and the attacking cabalist faction has taken over the scene.
      -For instance a scene where two families ask the avatar to mediate a legal conflict. > if the player picks a side then the scene is taken over by that family > if the player tries to act neutral or refuse to mediate then in subsequent visits the families are gone and one can investigate to find out that it escalated to the point of open fights, basically killing off eachother and then some bandits take over the scene.
      .
    • Problem: The feeling of an NPC doesn't change after story progress.
      Some NPCs after you have interacted with them or after the story progressed, doesn't have a change in expression when you pass them. For instance you could have solved the thing that makes them cry and they are still crying the next time you pass them.
      Solution: Have some Emote states be handled by the local client. That way the emote they make can change dependent on quest flags. So playerA and PlayerB are in multiplayer, in playerA client the NPC is doing a sad cry emote, but for playerB client the questflag is different so the NPC is doing a happy emote. Even though the NPC position and movement is identical in both of them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  20. Hornpipe

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    In the article, the source link is leading there.

    Edit : About the NPC problem, Portalarium should be able to apply some effect, client side, as they do for quest givers and as they would do with your suggestion about emotes being client side. Place Charlotte as a child playing in Soltown and give her the invisibility and no collision attributes until the player save her. Problem solved.

    @Lord British loves illusion tricks. I would be surprised if he don't like that one.

    Personaly I think that they are already working on this, because they already told us that they want to prevent Min Liang Tan to be met after he gets killed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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