Darkstarrs comment on MMORPG - My opinion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lord_Darkmoon, May 11, 2018.

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  1. Jens_T

    Jens_T Avatar

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    They had the Travian deal...
    If operating expenses are 300k/month and Telethons bring in 100k you still have to generate 200k in cash every month to break even.
    They have their liquidity to fund the next few months but then they require a stable source of income. Or another round of funding...
     
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  2. Kpopgurl

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    Well its the easiest. As it only needs the mechanics to work and the content is generated by the players... PVE needs a lot more work :/ and we are not talking about questing. It is easier though to work on it as you can work on iterations like they did in the past. PVP systems are hard to implement in short cycles though.

    Every release you get new quests and such, but as we can see the overall result is kinda meh and as darkstarr said will even be needed to be reworked in the end... face the facts SotA will never be a Witcher or Elder Scrolls like experience.

    I urge you to check what their number one metric is currently associated with search results etc. You will find out people are looking into this game for its connection to UO and other sandbox games which ALL have PVP or are even mainly about PVP - underworld acendant being the only exception. PVP is needed as it is the biggest base of people. I would wish people would think less in extremes. Most people like a balanced game where they can do whatever they like... and most people PVE AND PVP. If you take away one as SotA did, by neglecting fleshing out the PVP zones etc... people will get bored.

    Again read BB chat to see what will be ahead or wait until they announce it officially.
     
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  3. Hornpipe

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    I know how important PvP can be really. I am interested with that part too. But I still doubt that every effort need to be put on this. Shroud has been advertised as a RPG with strong story telling and yes, I think that SotA needs to approach the best sellers of the genre in terms of quality. Ultima Online was a big success because it had a good balance between PvE and PvP. Add a strong story telling to this and Shroud could break the glass ceiling. Stick only with PvP or basic PvE and Shroud will just be another MMO striving to find a place in a declining genre, in my opinion.

    Fortunately, Portalarium has other incomes than telethons. People buying things or the game between two fundraising livestreams are not a "so rare" thing. I'm not smart enough to tell you if it's sufficient or not but this certainly should not be neglected. Also, where did you see that Travian had to pay for the deal ? I did not see that.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  4. Kpopgurl

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    Well again don't fall into extremes. No one said a game doesn't need good crafting and interesting PVE as well. Sadly Portalarium put the best PVE content behind a paywall. POTs.
    If guilds could build their POTs on their own by playing the game and not spend lots of cash, we would have a totally different situation. I assume more people would be playing...

    The money they got through POT sales came with a "price tag". This content is now not available for most people and groups joining the game.
    This is one of the reasons why PVP is the only thing groups or new guilds like Dreadlords can really hope for to make their name by PLAYING THE GAME.

    SotA decision to make PVP the vital part of their game as endgame content was probably unintentional, but is now unavoidable. Guilds building their hometowns would have been AAA PVE content.


    That doesn't mean pure PVErs can't play the game... they just miss out on parts, so as most people miss out on the danceparties. ;)
    Extreme people who say danceparties should be forbidden, or PVPers are idiots and should go away... those are the kind of people the community needs to ignore imho.
     
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  5. Hornpipe

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    Sorry if I misunderstood you. I mostly agree with your point by the way. And PvP is nowhere near it must be to be attractive. I just hope that they won't fall too deep in the trap of the hard caps.
     
  6. Kpopgurl

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    I don't think we can have hardcaps now. The game is not designed for it. The cap they had in Blood Bay for a while didn't even make sense as the game doesn't work that way that those caps would change what they were intended to change.
    To make new players and smaller guilds etc viable and enjoy PVP they must fight along side stronger guilds etc. SotA lacks PVP design, and thats why only the strong survive in it right now, and they don't have to care about others.

    Bring in factions and mechanics to rewards working as a team in those PVP zones, and you will see players work together... Just like in real life.
     
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  7. Hornpipe

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    That's also my opinion. But we must be careful not to derail this thread. :oops:
     
  8. Jens_T

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    Yes, the cash shop and game sales. They need to sell 5k games every month to close that gap - or less if the players start spending in the cash shop. With regards to cash shop purchases between Telethons - I don't understand why anybody would do that as there are always discounts at the release. And with everything being moved to Cotos there's more flexibility if you need something urgently. In the end MMOs work if they have a big enough player base that regularly spends money in the shop (or pays a subscription). I wonder if the initial KS + Bundle + SeedInvest crowd is the same that goes for MMO and cash shop items - or if they are shifting their customer base and risk losing their old customers without winning enough new customers.
     
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  9. CarlNZ

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    At end of April their cash in hand was a little over $300k I believe. So there is certainly a lot of pressure to get things working in the immediate future. The big bucks recently have come from Travian and Black Sun's license payments not so much from the telethons, the cash shop doesn't cover costs.
    Sadly a catch 22, they need more money to keep the lights on, but they're cutting it so fine, I'm hesitant to put more in, at least hesitant to put more than $5 a month in.
     
  10. Kpopgurl

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    Can only speak for myself but what was announced lately gave me hope that they can make this player base grow. But I am also curious on how the cash shop will develop and the way cotos are needed etc...
     
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  11. miroko

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    Yeh i must agree the pvp system still is very poor =/ as UO fan i miss a nice pvp system.
     
  12. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Then don't. No one's keeping you here.
    My offer to purchase your account for face value still stands.
     
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  13. Lord_Darkmoon

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    "SotA community scares dissidents away" - Would make for a really great article ;)

    I bought the account and I live with it ;) Maybe the phyiscal goods can make up for the game a bit.
     
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  14. kaeshiva

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    Its a slippery slope to walk, truly. I think we can all agree that we need more market appeal, but what is the answer?

    The main appeal to myself for example with Shroud is that finally here is a good, immersive classless game that isn't pvp-centric. While improving PvP may draw in some additional players it will also alienate those of us for whom the main reason to stay here is because PvP isn't thrust upon us. If we end up having to deal with PvP in order to pursue our PvE goals, then well, we'll take our money elsewhere. Some of the things mentioned specifically in the review, like UI and such, are all things that are fixable and will be fixed. But I don't know if that's enough to really bring in "the masses." The reality is that Sota has to fight against reputation, and all the things that have been said about it on the interwebs thus far, some of which really put off people from even giving it a try - a lot of these negative comments are around " KS promises" and "P2w pricing".

    The reality is the housing in this game is extremely expensive. Most modern games include free housing out of the box or housing that's completely contained within in-game earnings. While in Sota you can get an "inn room" this is a player interaction thing, not a game-led thing. Some of the first steps you take in "other games" are getting your free, no rent required, basic inn room to keep all your things in. This goes again toward perception. Now those of us who have been here a while know that its completely possible to play/enjoy the game with only basic housing, and its possible to earn your way up in game, the perception from outside is "I need to invest thousands of dollars." and people will just walk away at that point.

    However even if we can get past that, the biggest hurdle as far as my own observation in trying to get my friends to play (and stick with) the game is this : The game plays like a job.
    Taxes on this. Upkeep on this. Cash sinks on everything. Gear that becomes useless after a month, putting the player in a constant grind for more materials for their next gear on top of everything else that they have to pay for. The amount of grind required, and the xp DECAY on that grind. This is 2018. While yes we have a core crowd who is tolerant of old-school punishment systems the modern gamer is not going to spend their time on a hamster wheel going nowhere just to maintain the status quo. Other convenience features, like centralized markets etc. are intentionally nonexistent by design but the modern gamer comes in and sees this as a downside, an incompleteness, an inconvenience. The poor state of in-game maps, the lack of mini-maps - again, while these weren't necessarily initially part of the design, they feel like "missing things" to the modern gamer who has been around the block.

    I love that Sota is a niche game, and that there's nostalgia. But I have said again and again that in order to survive an industry where the player has hundreds of choices about where to spend their time and money, you need to create an appealing picture. Its possible to have a balanced economy without making the player feel like they are doing a 9 to 5 job grinding cash to pour into a drain. There have been dozens if not hundreds of posts on this topic. Players need stimulation, they need reward - this goes from everything to character advancement milestones, loot (particularly boss loot, which is insulting), the lack of achievements, titles, etc... it just isn't here. People need a reason to keep playing beyond paying the rent or affording to replace their gear to continue to play.

    We may need to forsake some of the old-school charm to appeal to the 2018 gamer. In all the other games I've fiddled with over the last few years none has had the 'job' feel of Sota in many of these aspects - loot felt meaningful, there was no constant cash drain, there was no backwards progress or de-levelling of skills. If you killed a big boss thing? You got something decent, 100% of the time. Your time has value and you can see your character noticeably improve, and, if you do reach a vertical cap, there are things like alternate advancement, achievements, various lateral improvements etc. to keep you busy until the next content push. In most games, teaming up with other players has a net benefit instead of a net penalty, as in Sota - either by having bonuses for grouping or, individual rewards for group members, or some other system that encourages cooperative behavior.

    Personally, I find Sota to be an amazing world and an amazing game, and I've put more time in here than anywhere else in years. But I've been playing games for 30 years and I've been there through the evolution of the industry - particularly the online gaming industry - and this has nostalgic value for me. For the more recent gamer, it simply looks like a grind and a cash sink and going backwards and the only way to change that perception is to change the reality so that this isn't the case.
     
  15. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    My opinion of the state of the game differs from yours. Yes, there are many things that still need work. That will be true from now until the day the servers close.
    There is nothing "Going On" with me... I complain about those things that I think aren't right, and give feedback and suggestions and sometimes I ACCEPT that something isn't going to be the way I'd like it, or what MY vision of that feature was. If there were something that I could NOT accept, I would simply liquidate what I could, and leave.

    What I don't understand is why you, especially after this post, which makes it very clear that you believe that the game is irredeemably flawed, and beyond help Still return here regularly to state that your belief is that the game is irredeemably flawed. It's like refusing to leave a restaurant that you hate, still eating the food you hate, all the while complaining that the restaurant sucks...

    What is going on with you?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  16. Kpopgurl

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    What could Port realisticly improve to make you happy? I think the main problem the singleplayer has, is the story is not as captivating as the one in U7 was. :/ Kinda hard to change for them, and if you are only there for 1 aspect of the game I can understand its bad for you :( But that doesn't mean the rest of the game is as bad as some people claim it is.
     
  17. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I am not participating here regulary anymore. I just post sometimes and mostly read out of some habit. I have been part of the community for five years. So logging into the forum and reading has become something of a routine. But I post here less and less.

    Yes I think that the game is flawed. Can it be redeemed? Who knows. I don't care anymore.
    My post was not so much about the features SotA has or has not but the state it has been released in - and this in light of the current situation of the gaming market. A market where it seems to become common practice to charge full price for a product that is not finished, yet the devs call it released. A market where such behaviour is supported by some people who in turn make sure that this situation gets worse and worse. More and more gaming companies will do it this way. Release unfinished products but charge full price because people are willing to give them their money. Sorry, but for me this is ridiculous behaviour.
    Just take a look at the release of Wild West Online. It is the same as with SotA. And more games will follow because people support this behaviour with their money.

    They don't have to make me happy (anymore). Yet reviews and opinions of players show that SotA does have problems - and not tiny ones...
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  18. Greyfox

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    SOTA's strengths are the unique gaming experience, HOUSING, the community, dedicated development team, sandbox. SOTA will never be a successful PVP game. Dating back to UO mixing PVE and PVP was found disastrous. Spending development hours balancing PVP is wasting time better spent on the strengths of SOTA.

    I'm concerned about the population. If this game has enough income to keep going for years at it's current pace of development, no problem. If SOTA needs more people to continue the Developers need to start focusing strictly on features that will bring in more players and bring back old players who left (except for the PVPers, they leave games like locust.)

    Bring on the UI improvements, fix the animation and sound, bring in unique PVE experiences not frequently found in other games like housing, player content creation tools, bring on the fun. If you want to PVP, play a PVP game. PVP and PVE DO NOT MIX WELL!

    The MMORPG review is fair and the developers acknowledged the issues. The OP is being way too dramatic expecting a perfect game for the initial cost. Every game released since patching over the Internet became a development option has been flawed. For under $50 SOTA is an incredible bargain even in the current state.
     
  19. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Yet you keep coming back and trying to recruit others to your point of view, and telling those who don't share your opinion that there is something wrong with them.
     
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  20. Hornpipe

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    Well I checked the docs and yes I saw the deferred revenues for licencing. Thank you and @Jens_T for the informations. I'll still wait for Portalarium's announcements about this. Last year, people was already predicting the end of New Britannia when they had only 500k cash reserve. So, let me be skeptical for now. ;)

    Besides that, building such projects has never been an easy thing. Even if SotA fails one day, there is nothing to regret for me. There is an inherent risk with every expense of this kind. And I largely played this game.
     
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