Crafting Specialization

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mass, Sep 9, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    You can still do anything you want, but the fact that everyone should be able to make everything kills the mmo part of the game.
    The Specializations will not stop anyone not specialized to craft something. Those who specialize will just do it easier.
     
  2. Silverti

    Silverti Avatar

    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    8
    generally a terrible idea which is just gonna force people to play more alts.
     
    Fruck and StarLord like this.
  3. Blightlord Knightmare

    Blightlord Knightmare Avatar

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Storm's Reach
    As long as they don't take away from those who've already specialized in everything and only apply it to new players, that would be fine. Besides you can always just make alts so you don't have to rely on anyone else (that's what I'd do, I want to be able to do anything myself). If they nerf that by only allowing us to have 3 or 4 alts, then everyone will just buy another game/account and boom. There's always a way around them trying to punish the player that wants to be left to their own devices.

    As I've said many, many times before, when you're trying to come up with a solution that involves taking choices away, nerfing players, and punishing people, you're trying to solve the issue by attacking the symptom, and not the underlying problem.
     
    StarLord likes this.
  4. StarLord

    StarLord Avatar

    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    I do not agree with that. Currently we do not have the spec and there are master crafters way better than me.
    Yes I am able to craft everything (in other MMOs I might be able to buy it from NPCs), but there is still a place for the master crafters even without spec.
    I mainly do not want to depend on them. So if spec is coming I need to develop ALTs, not a real improvement....
     
    Fruck likes this.
  5. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Thats fine, you dont have to agree with my opinions :)

    I think you missunderstand how specialization will work thought, You will not depend on them, but they will make it easier in that specific skill, for example Tailoring. Ofcourse thats all subject to change, but i have to ask you:

    Why is specializations in Combat skills a good thing, but crafting skills a bad thing? You think that everyone should be able to craft everything, i strongly disagree. There is no point for you to go and buy things from other people if you can craft everything yourself.
     
  6. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    With the present crafting system (specialization or not), there will never be an economically feasible scenario. Certainly a crafter can create a single exceptional item for sale on their vendor, but to ever sell the item they must ignore the enormous mat costs for production, then don't consider the millions spent on training, and price the item reasonably. In addition customers have different wants and needs. The crafter cannot anticipate the particular blend of attributes to add to his creations in advance. Unless attributes can be chosen from a list, crafting gear will always be limited to the crafter themselves or for close friends.
     
    Witcheypoo likes this.
  7. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Trophy Points:
    93
    My reasoning is that crafting specialisation in practice just does not work. Player just make alts.
    As for the combat specialisation, i disagree with that also. Again it just leads to alts to try different things. I would rather be able to specialise in everything, but only have 2 active at a given time. But as you say that is opinions, mine lost. No problem, I'll adapt to the changes and work with them.

    But for the crafting specialisation, if the goal is to make crafters only do one thing, this is not the answer, in no game has this worked, why would it work here.

    As i have said before the problem you describe is an economy mechanics problem, not a crafting mechanics problem.

    Regards
    Spung
     
    StarLord likes this.
  8. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I have seen nothing in this thread that i have seen that can answer the following question :-

    With this change what good reason why I would buy stuff from them (as a crafter - spend a good proportion of my online doing) rather than make alts for each specialisation and just multi-box or switch?


    Regards
    Spung
     
    StarLord likes this.
  9. mass

    mass Avatar

    Messages:
    1,223
    Likes Received:
    2,513
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But how does their proposed specialization actually impact this. It sounds like everyone will still be able to craft everything, some with specialization will be able to make better things, and if one person wants to specialize in everything, they simply create alts/alt accounts. It's a hassle, but not enough of a hassle from stopping people from doing it. Therefore, in my opinion, this kind of a system will just create a hassle for players and not actually change any behaviors.

    There are better ways to limit crafting: make crafting level more important to both quality and recipe learning, make recipes more rare, make rare ingredients that impact control over enchanting/masterworking, etc. With a deep system that emphasizes crafting skill levels, only a few, hardcore crafters will make everything. Others will naturally specialize.
     
    StarLord and Elrond like this.
  10. GrayFog

    GrayFog Avatar

    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Have no real good solution here nor any good ideas.

    But i know for a fact that i will just simply make alts incase i need more specialisations.
    Gaining producer xp for alts is absolutely no problem anymore anyway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    StarLord likes this.
  11. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Its not about making crafters do one thing. Thats not how i see it. Its about people having it easier to make sertain things, which leads to specializations.

    Agree to disagree, some people thing that everyone being jack of all trades is a good thing, personally i say its one of the things that scare me most about this game, and its the only thing that i see would cause me to leave in the future, when my crafting stuff wont be needed because everyone just make their own. This goes for combat too, as expressed in other threads.

    Last commend on the subject from me, this " people just make alts " is in my opinion invalid. First, i hope specialization is account bound, and secondly, its a MASSIVE amount of time involved to level crafting skills. Combat specialization as 20x more XP consumed compared to all other skills, i assume Crafting would be the same. And if you're telling me that people will train several characters with 24 million crafting xp just to get to GM on EACH character.... JUST for the specialization, not to mention all the other skills you need to raise in that tree? Well, i doubt it.
     
    Elrond likes this.
  12. GrayFog

    GrayFog Avatar

    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Trophy Points:
    93
    i would :D
     
    Arradin likes this.
  13. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Trophy Points:
    93
    But with diminishing returns, unless you do what mass said with making the higher level (that are huge XP sinks) more significant it is actually not that much work, I can take my main from 110 to 120 for a tiny increase or train a whole new alt to 110 in a different specialisation for the same player effort. With this change i will do the latter.
     
    Arradin likes this.
  14. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Good points, but it has been said that skill will matter more in the future.

    And personally, i will gamble my time that its worth it to go high up in sertain trees , rather than trying to split them up in all of them.

    ( I love the constructive tone we have in this thread guys, keep it up :) )
     
  15. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    4,028
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Crafters Town
    Not for long now that Grayfog is here ..he will start counting your town lots and point you out as a 1% .:)
     
    Tila Tenderfoot, GrayFog and Arradin like this.
  16. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    But but... i bought a PoT just to fill it with town lots, am i a bad guy now? :(
     
    Jaesun, GrayFog and Elrond like this.
  17. StarLord

    StarLord Avatar

    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    I think also the combat spec is a bad thing (at least the limitation to 2). The combat spec is even worse as it completely blocks some actions like taming destroyers (in theory still possible with insane taming level).
    So yes I am against ALL specializations (at least against the limitation to 1 or 2) - but I do respect your different opinion, I can understand your position, just prefer mine.

    - this should not matter. With ALT I mean a different account.
    I have no idea on why I should have a second character on the same account. seems pretty much worthless to me. However a 2nd account can be used during telethons :)

    - also should no matter much. Spec will cost a lot and it should not really matter whether I get the XP with my main avatar or my ALT, theoretically an ALT could be even faster as I can play with 2 accounts in parallel (at least mining and crafting)
     
    Arradin likes this.
  18. GrayFog

    GrayFog Avatar

    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Lol no, don't worry, don't really want to start such an discussion again :p
     
    Arradin likes this.
  19. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    3,054
    Likes Received:
    11,752
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Ah, no. If they make specialization mitigate or bypass the RNG on gearcrafting, not being specialized means that crafting anything is going to cost you a significant order of magnitude more in wasted materials, not to mention wasted refining time, etc.
    It will become completely, utterly, and 100% pointless to make ANYTHING you aren't specialized in.

    Since gear crafting takes at the MINIMUM two "rng passes" for mw/enchant, limiting people to 1 specialization will absolutely require that all "gear crafting" go through the hands of TWO players, requiring either an alt, or a crafting partner on a similar schedule as yourself (ie, my husband and I often work together as he levels blacksmith and I level enchant).

    This is my main issue with specialization in crafting being "exclusive." People are not going to stand around for days waiting for someone to be available to do something to their gear, they're going to want to simply get it done, so that in case of failures, it can be re done. If you craft an item, and either masterwork it or find the appropriate specialist, then go find an enchanter, but they dont get what you want, you're back to making more and masteworking them more, then finding an enchanter, etc. It could take days/weeks to get anything done. This is a huge step backwards.

    If specialization has better effects ? Same deal - wait around until you find a specialist, level an alt, or drown in half completed pieces waiting for someone to be available. Its a bad plan.

    I'd much prefer to see a specialist/proficiency passive which has a VERY high cost, which encourages players to focus but without being a forced exclusivity. If someone's going to invest the time to level up producer skills, its the same amount of time whether they do it on one character or split it across several alts. I don't think pushing to make people split their time across alts makes any sense whatsoever. But I absolutely know people are going to do it, and the "best" crafters will be the ones who grind out the XP. If someone wants an item made, are they going to carry it around half-done for days while they find appropriate specialists or are they going to go to the crafter who is a 1 stop shop with their alt army and get it done in a sitting?

    This is not going to magically create cooperation between players. I'm not personally worried about it, because as I said previously, my alts are ready to go. In addition, my husband and I have been "specialists" in our relative crafts for well over a year now. We regularly have a queue of people standing around our workshop when its "crafting time" because between us we can do just about anything. There's a few things we haven't pushed as high (because neither of us use them) but for the most part, its a 1-stop shop. With the RNG being what it is, I'm almost tempted to change the sign from "Crafting Pavilion" to "Casino" - and I'm thrilled with the possibility of the pointless punishing RNG issue finally being addressed! But address it with exlusivity? Well, the the only thing that will change is me having to unlearn carpentry skills that are at 120+, and log the alt on to deal with carpentry. However I just think it is pointless, because all its going to do is add load screens to the process, its not limiting me in any real way. It is however limiting the players who are trying to be self sufficient, and once again flying in the face of the "classless system where you can level whatever you want."

    Restricted tradeskills is a BIG "no" from me, in this or any game. Requiring a significant investment in tradeskills I have absolutely no problem with. I'd like to do it without running multiple accounts if possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    StarLord and Vero like this.
  20. Arradin

    Arradin Avatar

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,167
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Can you show me one MMO game in history that has allowed anyone to make anything and train all skills on one character, and successfully so?

    I will not argue with people who are for jack of all trades, where everyone can do everything because its " convenient " or " saves time " or " is quality of life approved ".
    Why? Because i feel its been proven over and over to be a failing concept.

    We can look at our closest comparison, Ultima Online. You are hard capped at X Skills. Specialization doesnt exist, and people can make many alts. In order to do everything i wanted, i had to have 3 accounts running with 6 chars on each. Because you dont only want crafters. You Want tamer, mage, etc etc etc. But i kept running many accounts. Now, so far you think that this proves your point, right? Well it doesnt. This barrier of creating alts might not stop you , or me. but it stops most people.

    I Have tried Ultima Servers which drastically increased or even removed hard cap , making you able to train all skills on any one character, and surpise surprise, they all failed. hard and fast. Because most people ( NOT all! ) like for it to be uniqueness in a game, you want to be part of something as a whole, and i dont just want to be one in the crowd of everyone being the same.

    People can argue all they want that specialization won't help community wise where people buy from eachother, but just as with Socialism, everthing to everyone WILL NOT WORK.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.