Make it fun, make it the best

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by majoria70, Sep 20, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Chrystoph Reis

    Chrystoph Reis Avatar

    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    1,879
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    God I don't like any of these suggestions. This game is/was supposed to be a throwback for old-heads like myself.

    It is way too easy to level now as it is. Making it even easier is going to bore me to death. If this game turns into another mindless millennial MMO, I'm out.

    Only thing I really care about is the Questing... not enough... lack of polish.
     
  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    3,054
    Likes Received:
    11,752
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    I like it too, classic 'debt' system - although there should be some sort of (high) upper limit - to prevent a situation in which a character is staring at 40 hours of grind before they can make progress, for example.
     
    Vero likes this.
  3. Vero

    Vero Avatar

    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    701
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Aye very true, 40hours grinding just to start gaining again would be a thing yes :p
     
  4. yinki2

    yinki2 Avatar

    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    219
    Trophy Points:
    18
    or pay one coto to npc healer in town to get 50% xp lost during last 24hour
     
  5. mass

    mass Avatar

    Messages:
    1,223
    Likes Received:
    2,513
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is a great point. I think one of the things missing on the OPs complaint list is 'grindyness'. One of the biggest fun factor issues with the game is that a high level character has little to do except continue to grind levels, bosses, mats. Having things to do that make you feel like your character is helping to shape the world is what an 'end game' character needs. I'd love to see regional battle sites where occasionally the obsidians will raid and everyone can contribute to the battle through combat, crafting siege weapons, supplying potion caches, rebuilding structures, etc. And the state of the raid affects the region, impacting NPC pricing, xp rates, rare loot drop rate, etc. And then people who contributed enough to the raid get rewards on top of it, including rare deco (like a statue with a plaque that reads 'Defender of such and such'). This is just something I would like, I'm sure there are lots of other good endgame ideas.

    Right now, they clearly need to focus on fixing core game mechanics. But in the future, this kind of content is needed to give people a reason to keep playing. There's only so much joy I can get from making a number go up one more time and finishing my rusty spatula collection. We've got to get to a point where we're not playing just to make the numbers go up, but to have impact on the world.
     
    Guppy, Nog, Witcheypoo and 5 others like this.
  6. Chatele

    Chatele Avatar

    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    3,069
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    USA
    I REALLY LOVE THIS IDEA ….. Best one I have heard yet....
     
    mass likes this.
  7. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,265
    Likes Received:
    6,621
    Trophy Points:
    165
    If each episode takes 5 years to devleop and results in another 40 hours of content we're in deep doo doo
     
  8. Brewton

    Brewton Avatar

    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    477
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Since the basic systems are in place it shouldn't take that long, hopefully, it does contain more content. They are already working on EP2 so I'm sure it won't be too much longer for that. :)
     
    Lord Trady of Blix likes this.
  9. Dulayne

    Dulayne Avatar

    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    483
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I understand that people do not like the decay and death penalty. I understand people do not like to lose progression. However I am one of maybe a few people who enjoy the risk vs reward. It requires me to put time and thought into each encounter that I face. If I die then I lose out, if I win then I feel satisfaction that I did not lose anything.

    I have over 1,200 hours in the game over the past six months and I have a toon that looses over 140k per death (at the first death). I know of a couple of people who lose more and they just adapt and change tactics. Yes it stings a little but I know if I dust myself off, adapt and move forward I can get it back in no time. Otherwise how am I going to improve?

    Maybe we could get something souls related where you have a chance to reclaim a "pool" of lost experience for getting back to it?
     
  10. Tila Tenderfoot

    Tila Tenderfoot Avatar

    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    445
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Festival
    I actually enjoy high risk while fighting bosses and the fear of losing xp actually makes me play better and strategize. That’s the only way to learn for me. However, the death decay is too punishing for people who play every day - be it the time, the gear, or the fun factor. Heck, sometimes I think the folks who log in for daily oracle welfare have a larger pool than me. ;) If the death slows me down, I can’t magically invent the lost time that could’ve been spent on helping others or rl.
     
    Daedwax likes this.
  11. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    One huge polish thing I forgot to mention is the UI. I think we're at a point where it's ready for the elbow grease. I'm not talking about the looks, I'm talking about functionality.

    The community has posted a lot of specific items, and just addressing those would go a long way. I don't know if a professional UI person needs to take a look from the outside on a contract as well (sometimes a fresh set of eyes is not just nice, but critical), if so it should happen. There is a long list of UI hangups that are decreasing fun and usability and when fixed as a group it is going to be a huge improvement to the game.
     
  12. disorder

    disorder Avatar

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    8
    This.
     
    Daedwax and Vladamir Begemot like this.
  13. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    2,649
    Likes Received:
    4,202
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perennial Coast
    Those ideas exists for years :)

    Another one:
    after first death you just receive 75% of XP.
    after second death you just receive 50% of XP.
    after third death you just receive 25% of XP.
    after fourth death you receive 12,5% of XP.
    ...
    with every minute XP raises until it is back at 100%.
    (May be after half an hour it is there again)

    The difference of this kind of decay instead of what we have now:
    You don't lose anything what you got. Just your progress slows down a little ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  14. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    2,649
    Likes Received:
    4,202
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perennial Coast

    Yes,
    - sieges for example ...
    They could have more meaning!

    Imagine, you enter the game and the town crier calls to weapon, because town of ... is under siege!
    Let it be very hard! But let hundreds of Avatars run into that siege against a horde of Obsidians!

    Other things could happen, smaller and bigger ones:
    - wolf horde / Skeletons ambushing a small town! Clean it up from wolfes / Skeletons.
    - MISSING: a person is missing in a town! Talk to a few persons and find out, that (s)he has been kidnapped by ...
    find a very high tier boss and try if you can get through his traps and defeat him ... bringing back the missed person to receive - something special ...
    - a ship in the harbour was ambushed from (whatever!)
    enter it and clean it, not nowing, what kind of creature lurks inside the ship, waiting for you!
    - After the 1000 coin you spent to a town beggar he hands you a treasure map. He wants you to find it for him, knowing it is very hard to keep it!
    And he wants you to share half of gold with him/her! (Imagine, if this treasure would be 100.000 gold!)
    How you end the quest would show effect on your virtue!
    The treasure map could lead in so different scenes all over the map! And may be sometimes you have luck (10%) to get a really rare item.
    Sometimes you are totally out of luck (90%) and find just a few gold peaces. And sometimes you could find another map - wait ... a part of another map!
    The quest starts now - finding the other 3 map parts. Maybe another Avatar found it? And may be only 4 Avatars, each one having a part can do that quest together?


    So many, simple possibilities with more meaning for our virtues, nice story, reason to explore, chance of very special loot, ... a reason to play and to have great funny moments :)
     
    Daedwax, FrostII, Cordelayne and 2 others like this.
  15. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    11,010
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    This is all I really care about as well. Quests and questing is what makes the game great. Especially the content that can be done with friends, I love this the most! Sadly, as you pointed out, there isn't enough and what is there isn't polished, intuitive and often broken.

    I'm not saying it's bad, in it's current state I'd give it a solid C, but who settles for mediocrity? Hopefully no one here! :) This is exactly why I harp on getting things fixed and polished before implementing new features.
     
    ephialtes, mass, Daedwax and 5 others like this.
  16. Magnus Zarwaddim

    Magnus Zarwaddim Avatar

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I agree that there is a bit of a disconnect between fun and being punished for having fun. However, I think the main problem is that a minority of people are already high level (I am Adventure Level 102, and I don't count myself in that group yet), making it harder for others to catch up who cannot play constantly. This is the main reasoning, as I understand it, for things like the death penalty. You want to slow down those people that can afford to play a lot from getting to the absolute top because the gap becomes discouraging to lower level players. That's not to say its a good idea in its implementation.

    I'm not advocating for the death penalty system. For me right now, the penalty is a paltry 40-75K. I know that for the Adventure Level 110+ player it's brutal (or so I've heard). But I do agree that the developers have to do something to reign in high-level players from simply getting too far ahead as to make it impossible to ever "catch up". Remember, that is what everyone wants to do in some fashion - no one starts a game and wants to stay at level 50, 75, 100 if there is a minority of players sitting at level 200. And since the majority of players cannot devote the time to get to 200, they will quit. There is no incentive for them.

    Attenuation helps out a lot with reigning people in. So that is a start. The death penalty just discourages those players from doing risky things, and frustrates them when they die and have to suffer a huge XP hit.

    I would advocate three things (the first two still somewhat punish, but maybe it's a compromising position the developers can take):
    1. Create a death debuff. If you die, suffer a debuff of your abilities on a timer. Say, -10% of your innate skills the first death, with a 15-30 minute timer. Log off if you must, or go do something else, or if you want a challenge have at it - it helps slow a player down. The second time within one hour, make it -20% and 30-60 minutes, etc.. This is in line with the attenuation system in terms of the timer. The numbers I present are just for examples sake. In order to reduce the punishment factor, have the player choose to undertake a challenge / quest in order to remove the debuff.
    2. Make every 10 levels after 120 for all skills and your Adventure Level require some challenge / quest in order to unlock the next 10 levels. Grandfather every one in who has passed 120 in any skill and all those players past Adventure Level 120, but at the next 10th level they have to start participating in this system. You still gain XP, and it still goes into your pool. You just can't level anything beyond 120 (and every 10 levels thereafter) without completing the challenge / quest. This is more of a reward for people who aren't at 120 yet, and it creates incentive to do things (maybe with others). This type of system can have rewards as well (doubling the incentive: unlock 10 levels and get schwag).
    3. To make the above worthwhile, remove the death penalty wherein you lose XP for dying in PvE.
    With respect to PvP, honestly, I personally like the Ransom aspect. You have 30 days to get your stuff. If you can't afford the 3-5K that my stuff goes for, you have time to get it back. As for what is Ransomed, the RNG happens to take my best piece of armor or my weapon one out of every 10 times, maybe. I understand higher level gear may cost more, but if you are higher level and cannot afford the Ransom something is wrong. :)

    The only change I would advocate here is this:
    • Make successive ransoms cost less, based on a sliding scale (@Chris I know you love math!). Dying 10 times in PvP (not the Obsidian Trials) shouldn't cost me 30-50K. In the end, maybe after a reduction in Ransom, it should cost me 10-15K for those 10 deaths (the first still being the 3-5K I normally suffer). Again, this is assuming my best gear is taken by RNG 10 successive times, which it won't be.
    These are just thoughts. They may not work given the systems in place and the development roadmap.
     
    Witcheypoo and Daedwax like this.
  17. Blightlord Knightmare

    Blightlord Knightmare Avatar

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Storm's Reach
    The Death Penalty is one of my absolute most favorite features of this game, I think taking it away would basically make it unplayable for me. After WoW came out, the casual crowd has gotten used to having no death penalty in MMOs and I think we've lost something very important, something to be treasured. How can you care about danger and excitement when you effectively castrate it from the game mechanics? I too am unhappy when I die, but that makes the moments when I escape death all the more sweeter. The game experience is richer for having a death penalty, not poorer.

    When I saw that SotA was hearkening back to the halcyon days of MUDs or even games like EverQuest, that truly resonated with me as I'm sure it resonates with many others in the community.

    Personally I don't care about ransoming or anything related to PvP, not unless we bring in Clan Warfare and/or Realm Warfare with sieges and whatnot.

    As for decay? What is so wrong with decay? Since Diablo days the gaming community has surely accustomed itself to the realities of equipment breaking down. The entire foundation and premise of the balance between loot and crafting in the entire MMO is based on the idea of decay. It may sound like it would be a good idea to take it away, but I posit that the ramifications would be disastrous. Much like getting rid of the death penalty, you would be getting rid of something that enriches the playing experience.

    Simply because something is bad, does not mean it does not contribute something that is good. Without darkness, what is the light? Without evil, what is good? Without consequences, what do the virtues truly mean?

    If players want to play a game without consequence, without hardship, without a true sense of reward.. then they have countless and boundless choices in the MMO community. Why play this one? Why try to change what is wonderful and unique about this game and pervert it to act like all myriad of others? Is what you want truly just another MMO-clone that has the trapping of Ultima Online? That seems like a depressing and souless enterprise that I certainly don't want to be a part of.

    In trying to do drastic measures to make the game "cooler and more fun", I warrant that that is the surest path to destruction. There are many other things that have to be addressed (and are being addressed) to improve the so-called QoL.

    Rash choices beget follies.
     
  18. disorder

    disorder Avatar

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Well said.
     
  19. Daedwax

    Daedwax Avatar

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    20
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Oregon
    Gonna try and keep this simple and concise
    Combat - I would make using the dodge keys (Double Tap in combat) more important for most solo fights and tanking.
    Best of the world - I would add chests, more breakable items, and possibly a special item in the nicer parts of maps that remain unexplored. Example: In Solace Bridge their is a castle with broken walls you can climb and search through. It'd be nice if a few gold pieces, a lore note, and maybe some extra minions related to the castles "zombification" were encountered.
    Conversation with NPC and Questing - The quest system in general needs to be polished but beyond the removal of objectives after quest completion. I would advocate for a new conversation system the revolved around the principles and virtues (and anti) using a pie chart style conversation system with a speech bubble and the related virtue symbol behind it. Showing that this choice is a truthful answer while this other choice is a lie. Even if it is an illusion of choice and no variation in story.
    Virtue/Law System - Yes, please.

    What I love about Shroud of the Avatar is that despite it being a classless system I've been able to find a make an in game living as a Miner (Main) and a Butcher (Alt). I love playing and being a part of the world and community, I don't have the answers but I wish it was easier for other people to do this. In general it seems you have to be lucky enough to meet someone when you start who explains the world or you just push through, struggle, and eventually find it on your own. Most people don't even know they have a new players handbook and I think most new players don't stick around long enough to experience the housing system, which is a shame.
     
  20. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    24,869
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Oh but for Me as a mostly Pve player getting my feet wet in a Pvp environment was totally not all about the armor. We had goals, we had a timer, we didn't have to know each other but still had a team effort, and of course we had the reward. ;) To me it was fun, but truly if no one else agrees that is what this thread is about. It is not about do you agree with me. It is not about one system verses another. It is about ideas. Truly what if Decay was taken away? Many games don't have decay. What do they have that is fun? And for those who say one thing should get precedents over another because that is all you care about, dig deeper for the good of all parts of the game. That's one reason why we battle all these years and twist and turn, pull and push imo. Success only comes from looking beyond and I feel looking at the whole game not for criticism but what is missing the presence of which would make the differences. Of course a lot of the game has tons of fun to be had. I also have lots of fun but some don't. And as the saying goes If you only look at what is, you might miss what could be. So this thread is about those ideas and if you don't want to participate then don't. It's not my way or the highway, this is for all of us and could be a brainstorming session.
     
    Witcheypoo likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.