Game's direction starting to feel like ARK and Wildcard.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Justice Owen, Oct 12, 2018.

?

Am I being reasonable?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Be patient

  4. You're too late, Elvis has left the building

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  1. Justice Owen

    Justice Owen Avatar

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    Listening to today's livestream, I worry about the direction and future of the project.
    It feels very much like what Wildcard did with Ark. Out comes a product with promise and then instead of addressing underlying issues, completing core mechanics and polishing off the most basic of essential features, they plowed forward with arguably debatable content that is borderline fluff.

    So upcoming, Shroud is going to get new fish and fishing, seasonal events, Google chat integration and many other things we absolutely need, like more decorations such as different sized pumpkins which seems ironic since many towns are empty and no one is viewing the homes. They even had discussions on whether it's reasonable to allow large pumpkins to be rare and whether mechanically the continue to utilize a weight system! Heck, they aren't even having those discussion about the rarity of loot!



    I get told by lots of backers and early investors that the game is still improving. Whom is defining improvement? All of the core elements of the released product need serious work and they even admit as such.

    We can only imagine that they're desperate for money and they're trying to cash grab in efforts to fund the resources to keep designing the product.
    And I suppose I am not really mad at the developers, rather more frustrated that MMO players have become mindless goofs who value useless fluff and as a result, that is the market the developers have to cater to, to make money.

    It would be outstanding if developers would set a stretch target such as 'improve audio quality for all weapon types' or 'redesign the NPC spawns for dungeons' or 'design a combat system without a global cooldown' or 'make pets actually..do something.'

    I guess nobody cares about those things?

    We're not giving up though. My mindset is that the game is still in Beta. And since Beta is like some carte blanche for developers to do whatever the want (according to modern gamers), then I cannot complain.


    Then again, the game now has Wyverns, and ARK made a big deal about getting Wyverns....just saying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  2. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    Well the stuff mentioned in each quarterly post sounds really good. Don’t see anything of worry yet.
     
  3. Tiki Pirate

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    Quarterly posts, that's the big problem.

    Stuff mentioned here or there sounds great..

    Stuff actually done or re-done or re-re-done - like the new user experience, fleshed out skill trees, balance, cloaks, etc - not so great...
     
  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    I don't understand this, but hear it repeated on reddit and a few other places regularly.

    Businesses need to make money to keep operating. So do people say the local grocery store is making a cash grab? Their hardware store? They too are trying to cater to a customer and stay in business.
     
  5. Dulayne

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    Considering the scale of the task and the amount of staff they have, they are continuing to put out a pretty good amount of content. Of course this release has had some issues due to the move and so forth, but they are doing fine.

    They are working on the important things and getting on with it. I think that making stretch goals to fix stuff would be counter productive. They give us stretch goals and offer "treats", that is better than trying to effectively blackmail the customers to make money to fix stuff.

    They have done this fund raising method for a good few releases now, and it works out for the people who want to get some swag for their custom.
     
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  6. Turk Key

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    I want to remain positive, but the OP makes some good points about the core mechanics. The effort to improve, balance, and display combat has maintained focus all these years. I wish the same could be said for audio, UI, the Jira list, crafting, etc. I hope they try to make Episode 1 really good before embarking on the next adventure.
     
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  7. Black FjP

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    Your neighborhood grocery store and hardware store grow a reputation over time by always having what you need and giving you what you paid for. Of course they are profiting through markup and shipping costs, but they are supplying goods at a convenient location.

    The problem with what is basically a free to play model in this is that, instead of spending time fixing core issues and creating a game that people actually want to keep paying a subscription on, time has to be spent designing flashy things to sell and then producing those things and preparing and streaming a telethon. If all of their money is coming from store items, then the lions share of their limited production time is going to go into what is keeping the bills paid.

    I really just miss the days of "I pay you 12$ a month, and you keep making the game great to keep me playing"
     
  8. Cirsee

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    I personally have always been impressed what they can get done every month, buggy as it may be. We constantly compare the game to other MMOs that had really huge budgets and larger teams. That just isn't a fair comparison here. They are a crowd funded game and really need to do monthly funding campaigns, I totally get it. Their problem was making a game that didn't match backer or hyped expectations. Regardless if they crossed off all the things they promised; backers had a AAA MMO expectation of those items. Therein lies 3/4 of the problem. The other problem is they overestimated the draw to an old school MMO style and the reduction of a good RPG. People might be all nostalgic for corpse drags and perma death or body looting, but
     
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  9. Vladamir Begemot

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    Hmmm.... so that's your definition of a cash grab?
     
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  10. Derium

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    Man, you are so right with the ARK statement. My biggest complaint about ARK is that they keep releasing new things while not fixing the old problems. I love the game, but I'm tired of the same bugs or core systems being lackluster/broken in places. Yet they seemingly drop new dinos/maps/items left and right.

    I think you nailed it here, the core of SotA isn't even in place yet. They JUST launched the game and within weeks of that launch, they started focusing only on episode 2 and all of their future ideas, while plenty of in game systems need fixed or even completed.
     
  11. Derium

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    ARK wasn't AAA, their cost to make the game was $1,500,000. They got up to 25 employees, but not until after they did $150,000,000 in sales. With well over $250,000,000 in sales to date. So small teams and a "small" budget isn't an excuse to not deliver a fantastic game. True, ARK has plenty of unfinished, broken and buggy bit to it, but it's such a great game that people overlook it, to the tune of 26,000 current steam users.
     
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  12. Anpu

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    What specifically is wrong then @Derium ?
     
  13. Astirian

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    I believe smart phones are to blame for that particular race to the bottom.
     
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  14. majoria70

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    Well today is was just talking about a system, scenes, etc they implemented at the very beginning of the game and never finished. They are going through all parts of early systems to systems to make them better. That does not include quests imo and that will come though as soon as they can get to that system in Episode 2 I hear.

    If you read the standup notes you see they are focusing on getting episode one in good shape or best shape they can for episode two and that does not just included fishing. They are tackling lots of things. No need to worry, we are still a young game, but no matter what people will worry so why do I say it ;). Ok carry on. In case any don't know they do standup notes to let us know what the small team is working on. Sometimes they get behind and will put out a few of them in one day. So here is the link. If you are interested put it on watch. I always look at it.

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/standup-corner.2315/page-67#post-1166813

    Well I did mean to click on be patient and said #1 but that's ok because players do worry and you are just voicing your thoughts. ;)
     
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  15. Derium

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    I'm not pretending to have the answer. I do think over focusing on new content while not polishing and fixing old is bad. Way too many games do that now, they use a carrot on a stick approach. I'm not blaming Port for this, not at all. I do however think they've failed to fully realize just how much the gaming population hates it now. Since we are all use to early access games being "released" and chargins us to basically beta test their games. So the closer Port mimics one of the biggest thing that upsets the gaming community, the more people will groan about it.

    I will say they did a good job at avoiding the biggest issues, which is P2W.
     
  16. Floors

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    Fish and fishing are cool. They add a lot of depth to the game. They add a non-combat downtime activity, a reason to go into scenes where none existed, all of which are good for the game.

    Yes, the game has to continue to improve, but fleshing these systems out are good, and balance the game. So I have no problem with them. Fishing will be alot more meaningful and I enjoy fishing.

    Also, it's world building and adding lore, which they need to do more of.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  17. Justice Owen

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    Admittedly the use of that phrasing is not helpful on my part because it comes with a negative connotation - particularly with online gaming industry.
    The issue is that the way they can make money now is unfortunate. The landscape has changed. What players and consumers want are what I would define as mostly fluff.

    I cannot imagine the guys in the studio would not rather be working on game mechanics..
    And it's why I listed examples of stretch targets which surprisingly seem to be unorthodox. Really whomever heard a developer say 'Q4 stretch target - better NPC pathing'
    That should be a staple of the game, let alone a STRETCH target.


    And for every moment I find myself get that dopamine kick from an enjoyable experiencing the game, it's gone - fleeting, replaced by five more moments of utter disdain and frustration.

    Ultimately it's my desire to see a modern MMO actually buck the trend(s) that makes me passionate about it.

    Right, and the 'carrot' has become regurgitated redundant things that really aren't necessary. What's odd is that those very types of features, are the same things other games use for their cash shops and to support their Free to play models.
    Dare I say I wish Shroud charged a monthly fee. Maybe that would get them closer to the funding and resources needed to turn away from their current business model and road map.
    The rebuttal is that it takes time and resource away from development of the core elements that need a lot of work.

    Best analogy I can give is automotive makeovers like Pimp My Ride. They do a bunch of surface work and aesthetics. They throw on some fancy paint, livery, subwoofers, rims and interior. Yet the heart of the vehicle the engine, and it's supplemental systems (drive train, transmission, suspension etc.) are left untouched. Yes they work, and yes it runs, but it could be so much more improved for better performance and longevity, robustness and lifespan.

    Instead you get something shiny, that breaks down like it was always destined to anyways.
     
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  18. Floors

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    What you are going through is that although you like this game enough to post here on the forums, it's not living up to what you, in your own mind, want from the game.

    And that's totally cool.

    The only problem with venting about it online in the way you're doing is that it just encourages negative speculation, which leads to FUD, which leads to getting warnings, more frustration and it's just not worth the mental energy.

    Whenever it gets too much for be I stop playing for weeks or months and that helps me to relax. I might suggest you do the same at this point.
     
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  19. kaeshiva

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    EVERYONE has different priorities on what they think's important.
    I'm glad they're sorting fishing. The game needs more things to do than fight fight fight fight.
    I'm glad they're pushing quality of life changes and removing some of the annoying time-sinks which were just a deterrent to gameplay.

    Sure, there's bugs. No doubt about that. I've been waiting over 6 months for them to fix elysian illumination. But I don't get to set the priorities.
    If I did, I'd probably say - lets fix it so crafters can actually make money (either via a work order system or by removing the RNG).
    I'm less bothered if there's a chair in a dungeon somewhere that you can't sit properly in, or if I have to jump up a step in a particular spot. These things can wait.
    I expect they get addressed because they are low-hanging fruit, not because the team thinks that fixing that chair is more important than say, fixing a broken combat bug.

    A lot of what we see is reactionary. Things that "had to get done" that affect the schedule. So, time had to go into redesigning planters because players were using them in untintended ways. Time had to go into redoing AI because players were cheeseballing boss content. Time had to go into changing movement buffs a while back because people were zooming around too fast and desyncing and causing a raft of issues. Players do stuff. They break stuff. And sometimes unforeseen things need to get more immediate attention. I work in the software industry. I am on a daily basis baffled by the ways that end-users break/misuse software and we have a schedule impact on the planned release to go deal with the edge cases that have come up. This crap happens.

    But...yeah. I'm part of the problem. I'm one of the people who keeps buying the shiny new stuff. Not because I need more stuff, but because I want to support the project.
    I've suggested many times along the same lines that adding FUNCTIONAL or USEFUL things we can buy would be preferable to "oh look, another sword pattern."
    As long as you can also earn things with the same functionality through gameplay, that should keep the pay-to-win naysayers at bay.

    Honestly the depth of this game and the amount of systems in it that DO work that ARE functional already far exceeds that of many, many games out there.
    I've certainly sunk more hours playing this than I have in any other title in a decade, and I have a pretty short attention span.
     
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  20. addrox

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    I was just about to post about "elysian illumination"

    Can't you guys just make it like fire shield? It looks like the mechanics (fire shield) is already there. Whats the deal?

    Concerned
    Oo.o00o_OOO
     
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