Cool game, but way too punishing for newbs.

Discussion in 'Archived Topics' started by jacksweather, Oct 25, 2018.

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  1. jacksweather

    jacksweather Avatar

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    Three suggestions
    1) Quest lines should give more gear rewards. Even the rewards from the end of the love, courage, and truth quest lines are worse (for a mage) than the Order of Truth/Truth gear attained at adventure level 1/2.

    2) Make lower level mobs give more exp. Watching your exp pool empty when you're a tier 2 adventurer is an easy way to rage quit the game.
    3) Make microtansactions more visible to newbs


    Again I would like to reiterate, cool game, but being punishing to new players is the opposite of what you want to do for a game if you want it to grow and have money to fix bugs and problems (and make money).

    I'm around a level 85 mage, been playing for probably about a month. I'm several pages and lens into the oracle quest and I haven't found anything better than the adventure level 1/2 order of cloth gear. I've bought some gear 10-50k each from player's vendors, a wand, shield, chestpiece, necklace and leggings. They are mediocre upgrades. The only crafting I've done so far is gathering from EVERY node I see while questing, and a little salvaging. But I doubt I could get far into crafting with the gold available to me.

    I think the economy is extremely unwelcoming to newbies. There is such a small demographic of low levels to sell low level crafted pieces to. Newbs can only use public vendors, unless you consider someone who has completed the oracle quest still a newb, which is still a very long time regardless. Once a new player does get a row lot, all the high traffic areas are taken. Without a central broker/auction house newbies are severely handicapped at getting the few items they can attain that are worth something sold. The learning curve for knowing what the price of something should be is too high. Having player vendors in every corner of the map is interesting, but if a new player is going to go up to it and say, "I have no idea whatsoever if this particular vendor is selling this item 600times it's market value because a newb might pick it up." I'm not sure that the dispersed player vendor is good for the game. With a central broker/auction house a newb knows, "ok this is the lowest price this item is being sold for, much less likely I'm being ripped off." Again, though, if you just offer newbs gear through quests so that they aren't dependent on buying from player vendors that helps the problem.

    It's good to slow down the 100+level skills, but pre 100 is too grindy. Think of someone who hasn't been playing this game for years and is just trying to adventure. If you go around using your abilities, relatively quickly your exp gets less and less which makes your abilities level less and less. Eventually your grinding for xp, xp that doesn't level your abilities but gives you the abilitiy to level your abilities, its like a double grind, its just a bad idea. In addition, needing to turn off abilities xp gain in order to train others ones, in my eyes, defeats the purpose of having a classless system. The classless system, I thought, is supposed to make it so the abilities you gravitate towards using most are the ones that level. If you have to turn off abilities to not run out of xp, then you're turning off abilities you're using in your natural playstyle. And chances are, if you're turning off abilities, the abilities you're not turning off are abilities you've learned will help you become the most powerful (not the ones you naturally use). Bottom line, for me as a newb, its discouraging adventuring and seeing your xp get less and less. I think the best solution is giving low tier mobs more xp reward?

    Going back to making money. This game has micro transactions, low coto priced items, but they're just not visible enough to newbies. I think the game would make more money in micro transactions if in the tab/button where you can buy coto's there was also a list of all the obsidian merchant things you could buy with those coto's. Also, $40 bundles are not micro transactions. The launcher should take you to microtransactions $1-$40, not $40 or more. Things that a player would like to have BEFORE they've spent days questing or grinding to get a deed/a place to place decorations. When you click on the gold coin button in the upper right menu, it should bring you immediately to the most popular microtransactions, and then there should be a link to buying coto's.

    This game, was a good attempt at a soloable mmo, imo. But I'd definitely like to see more people playing it.
     
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  2. jacksweather

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    Also, I think it'd be a good idea to give full exp refund for abilities before adventure level 100? 90? 80? if possible. Again this goes along with the idea that it is a classless system. If you're new and tried out a certain playstyle and decided it wasn't for you, just give them full xp for unlearned skill if they're not using it at all anymore. (again another good way to not see xp pool drop to 0)
     
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  3. Floors

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    Game's primary goal was that player gear would be the best gear. That's what the playerbase wanted, that's what they got, and that's what we live with.
     
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  4. jacksweather

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    This is not contradictory to making gear awards in quests.

    Furthermore, "the playerbase" is probably like 300 people? If you make some changes that gets 301 more people (which is not alot) the "playerbase" is no longer those people.
    Furthermore, what people want can change.
    Furthermore, I doubt the "primary goal" was that player gear would be the best gear. (making money, good overall game, whatever goes on in British's mind are all probably more important goals.)
    Furthermore, saying "thats what we live with" is just self defeating and not progressive at all. The game is changeable, and the point of the post isn't that the playerbase isn't getting what they deserve, it is that it is not good for attaining new players. I don't know if that is important to any of the developers. I think it should be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  5. Floors

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    I agree, we would like more players. But not at the cost of dumbing the game down. Nobody wants another Fortnite or PUBG.

    I'd rather game with hardcore Ultima fans than what the kids of today think is good.

    You're starting to argue over semantics already, and I've said my peace. Player gear was the primary goal of the gear system.
     
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  6. jacksweather

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    The semantics are important. It is to point out there are more important things than what you are saying is a "primary goal".

    Pretentiousness=pride=not humility, According to Ultima one of the most dangerous vices.
    Nothing I listed makes it less of an ultima game , dumbed down or akin to WoW, fortnite, or pubg. Like I said, it's a cool game. But it'd be cooler with more money coming in fixing the bugs and moving it forward. Grinding doesn't make something an Ultima game, the current exp system it has is more like WoW than UO was, the game already has microtransactions, probably because it is recognized as integral in modern business models for games, I'm making a suggestion to make more money from those microtransactions, which barely changes the game. Like, how do you think those suggestions threaten anything you're concerned about?

    *All the Ultima fans I knew before I played SotA, don't play it.
    *People who played Ultima1-8 (dunno if they played 9), Ultima Underworld1,2, and UO. People who enjoy non WoW MMO's like EQ and are looking forward to Pantheon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  7. Brewton

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    I knew it wouldn’t take long before someone shot down a new players perspective and comments about his first few months of playing the game. And we wonder why people don’t stay long.

    Edit: I’m Sorry Jack, thank you for your perspective and hopefully they are read by the developers and future changes and improvements work on some of your points. Sorry for those that are quick to shot down your ideas and say that the game was not intended to do what you proposed even though this game has changed for more away from what it originally was marketed as during the kickstarter stage and almost ever year since then.

    Be well fair avatar and thank you for your insight some of us appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  8. Pawz

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    We need Taming buffs on gear! :)
     
  9. Chrystoph Reis

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    @jacksweather They already made all the changes you talk about. It used to be a lot harder before. With all the changes they made, what used to take 6months to a year to accomplish now can be done in a month. I actually think this is worse for the game as there is not a ton of End game content now, exp is way too easy to get so people blow through the lower end zones without ever really exploring the game.

    I personally couldn't stomach this game if they made it any easier. Last character I made went from zero to 80 in 8 days of just doing the quest lines and side quests. If I wanted that style of game I would be playing WoW. I want the industry to not be all the cookie cutter, easy garbage that they just keep throwing more and more content at you because all the stuff is super easy to beat.

    As for the gear... the whole point of it was to make player gear be the best. Yes there are some greedy vendors out there, however, there are also vendors who make super cheap gear, myself included. Hell I even sit in outskirts giving away gear. I've had free giveaway weekends. If you don't engage, you will never find.

    Yes it's a big world, but with how easy they have made everything, I find a lot of your points hard to take. I REALLY don't want that game... too many of them out there already.... and most of them unsuccessful. Think about how many games out there actually cater to what you are talking about, and how many of them are truly successful. MMOs are hit or miss, only WoW was really successful, and it's still out there... if that is what people want they already have a choice. No need to force feed the rest of us that garbage.... that's not what we signed up for.
     
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  10. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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  11. jacksweather

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    "I'm around a level 85 mage, been playing for probably about a month. I'm several pages and lens into the oracle quest and I haven't found anything better than the adventure level 1/2 order of cloth gear." < This means if they made the change, they added one set for 3 class archetypes. That is hardly anything. Again, gear from quests doesn't mean it has to be better gear than gear you can craft. Best gear from crafting doesn't exclude beneficial gear from questing, right?

    I ran out of xp. You might have leveled a player to 80 in 8 days after you already played the game, you were not a newb then, right? If they made the game easier for a newb, you wouldn't be the person the change is targeting. You can already craft, sell, ask master crafters for things, know where quests, monsters, buffs and drops are. You can twink anyone you start. A new player doesn't have access to what you have access to.

    I never said once to make the game easier. I said to make it less discouraging to newbs. If you want to increase the amount of exp it takes to gain levels and abilities, thats fine. That is far less discouraging than seeing your exp pool getting smaller and smaller, to the point where you wonder if you're leveling at all. Ideally, I'd say get rid of the exp pool and the ability to turn leveling abilities off, and just have every kill go into the abilities used on that mob. Have quest exp divided into every ability that's been used.

    That's generous of you, but it's not a solution to the majority of new players having extremely little buying/selling power.

    I think it's insulting to the game's content to say the changes I suggest bring it too close to WoW. The game is an MMO, that is like WoW. There are going to be certain similarities and certain things that work in MMO's, when you have millions of users and dollars being put into a game, you are more financially powerful to find good features along with the bad. I don't want the game to be a WoW clone, but I do want bugs to be fixed. That is something closer to WoW, we should just deal with the bugs though, right? Cause fixing bugs is something WoW does. The game is harder and less enjoyable that way. Much much better.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the things I want changed are all bugs, or even that fixing bugs should be the priority. I'm saying, hating on WoW is just hating...




    I think if you disagree with what I'm posting here, the key is I'm saying its discouraging to newbs, not that these things break the game. But, not having revenue, from a certain point of view, breaks the game when there isn't enough money to make it so blue markers from completed quests aren't removed from your compass when they should be. Things like this I think are a large contributers to the declining game population, which to me indicates the game dieing as an MMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  12. jacksweather

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    P.S. When I ran out of exp, a nice hospitaller invited me to UT, where I awkwardly did next to no damage while 100+GM players cleared the mobs. This was a nice way to make it so while I was adventuring I'd have an exp pool for abilities I naturally used. However, I quickly used that exp and UT was the fastest way to grind it back, so I'd ask nice players to do UT again. I didn't want to just leech though, so instead of leveling abilities I was using, I began leveling abilities that would make me more of a help in UT. I am lucky to have a group I enjoy those runs with, but it shouldn't be the solution to someone progressing through the quests.

    Posting this now, I think a good solution to the game becoming too easy and a solution to the emptying exp pool is simply to have less xp from the pool go to abilities, determined by adventure level?
     
  13. Nevyn Waldail

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    @jacksweather

    I'm fully on board with your suggestions, I like the difficulty, I like the skill management but fully understand that if we don't make this game accessible for beginners, none of us will be able to play it in the long term as it won't be there.
    What about just turning of xp drain for skill gain for lvls 1-50? That would allow you to build up a massive pool at the point where you start to use it up but hopefully have some understanding of how it all works.

    There is also an amazing lack of 101's, etc that helped and encouraged all those UO players of old. You could pretty much find a 101 on how to dress yourself on stratics. I'm a month in and only now figuring out the crafting system and how frustrating it is just to find even component recipies.
     
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  14. Steevodeevo

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    Welcome to the game Jack.

    Parking all of the other stuff, I have never had issues with running out of Exp. I have always carefully managed my pool, focusing on leveling skills one or two at a time, mindful of the dilution levelling more than one in the same tree etc. I've never done UT.

    Despite all comments I have to say this is because I'm prepared to be patient, I dont need or expect a rate of levelling common in other mmos. I'm not out for instant gratification. The game doesn't need an increase in the speed of levelling / increase in rate of skill learning unless you're very impatient and have expectations akin to other types of games, especially now that decay is gone and I don't even need to maintain my skills.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  15. Nevyn Waldail

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    I think the point is, while you don't and I don't many new players do and without retaining those new players there will be no game.
     
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  16. Steevodeevo

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    Here we go again :). It's full swing of the pendulum now to the point that the wishes of new players hold far more importance than establish players who know the game inside out and its always: "we have to do as they wish for the survival of the game" :eek:. Many new players are on a learning curve and the most articulate and communicative of them post stuff as suggestions or complaints that it's patently obvious are simply down to a lack of understanding of game mechanics or because they want an experience closer to what they came from.

    Making changes in a panic to sooth disgruntled new players too impatient to learn the game or adapt to SOTA pace has more chance of killing the game than sticking to design principles and a measured approach. Unless of course SOTA is literally on its very last knockings!

    By the way this is absolutely not a dig at the OP, he took the time to make some good points and does enjoy it and I just wanted to comment specifically on the Exp usage rate.

    You just get fed up with the vitreol aimed at posters whenever anyone dares to suggest that the next QOL suggestion, ballance change or system simplification may not be good for the game long term. Now that SOTA is free to play the demands for simplifications and speed ups will grow exponentially. If they are all or mostly implemented simply on the basis of new player retention then SOTA, as SOTA will be dead in a year, but another easy on the eye no stress, open world /instanced fantasy mmo like a 100 others may survive, even grow and make the Devs and investors some cash. After all, isn't that what it's all about?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  17. Gorthyn

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    I absolutely agree that they shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater in making changes but ultimately they do at some point need to make some cash and turn a profit. Port is a business and without a profit at some point the plug will be pulled on SOTA in whatever form it happens to be in at the time.

    What I hope is that changes are balanced with retaining what is good about the game (which is considerable in many ways despite the well known issues). I believe the depth and challenge of the game (as well as it's "atmosphere") can and should be preserved while removing the rough edges and adding in the glaring omissions.

    Then it really would be a fine game.
     
  18. Nevyn Waldail

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    IMO, its not about satisfying new players who are grumbling its about creating a game that doesn't have them grumbling in the first place. If they are grumbling you've probably lost them already. There are a number of areas where the game is not particularly fair on new players learning the system. My idea above of suspending the spending of xp until a certain level for example would have no impact on long term complexities of the game. I'm sure everyone has an idea they think is brilliant so appreciate many will think that particular idea is rubbish. there are definitely things they could do that would not have a major impact on the existing format of the game and still encourage new players to hang about longer.
     
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  19. jacksweather

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    If patience was the determining factor, wouldn't you just keep all your skills to gain exp, and be fine with you exp pool getting low and just level the ones you use slowly? Why turn some off?

    The mechanics aren't that complicated. They seem to have a contradictory goal. On one hand wanting to foster people leveling the abilities they naturally use, on the other hand making people turn off abilities if they don't want to run out of exp. Why not just make the exp going into divided skills equal to that of learning one skill? Why does more exp go into skills if you're training many than how much exp goes into all turned off but one?

    ...the fear of WoWification is rife. I'd like to point out the OP isn't asking for an easier game. It is a serious problem imo, that the game is losing people faster than it is gaining people.

    The managing of abilities getting exp just seems contradictory to the abilities used=abilities leveled goal. Ideally in a game there is a great pacing of mastering strategy with an ability and then attaining a new ability to develop a new strategy. Grinding and patience aren't challenging to me, they're easy and boring. I want novelty, insight and a challenge. I think those things are attractive to many people and don't WoWify the game or take away from an Ultima atmosphere. I'm all for more puzzles, endgame content and challenge. The OP is about tediousness being discouraging. Saying if a player doesn't have enough patience they don't need to play the game is a pretentious simplification of the issue. Give me a challenging patience test that promises something novel/rewarding and I'll conquer it, give me an easy test of patience that yields an expected predictable result in a long time and Ill find something else to do. There's a difference between testing patience and testing how important someone's time is to them.
     
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  20. Lars vonDrachental

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    To 1)
    I guess some helpful gear could be rewarded but I guess most new avatars are unaware that they can easily craft sufficient starter gear themselves….maybe simply because in most games the drops are your source of equipment. I would instead suggest adding some more crafting quests that new avatars recognize that crafting some normal pieces of gear is not that difficult.

    To 2)
    Actually I think this is more a problem of unknowingness and leveling too many skills simultaneously…I don’t know…maybe the number of skills you can level concurrent should be limited or there should be some more ingame explanations about how the flow of experience works. If you once in a while take a look and adjust the number of your active skills you normally put more experience into the pool than you take out.
    Maybe the impression at low levels you get lesser experience just arise because of the possibility to grind at a specific point enormous amounts of experience by group-grinding or simply your own avatars overwhelming power but this is already endgame content while trying to get lvl 200+ skills by farming enormous amounts of exp and has out of my perspective not that much to do with the…let’s call it story mode you are starting with.

    To 3)
    Honestly I hope they never implement such an in-your-face-shop. I know they need to make money but everyone playing the game gets info e.g. about the weekly live streams and how to support the game if they like to…a more aggressive ingame advertising might be even counterproductive if people get the impression they have to buy items to play the game or simply get annoyed by the ingame advertisements.

    Again maybe there is an info needed as there are potions that can do this (yes, not for 100% of experience) but I do not think a refund is needed. Even if you never use these skills again your unused skills are strengthen your avatar in one or another way and that way they are not really a waste.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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