Upgrading Tax Free Lots

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Calan Caitin, Jan 24, 2019.

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  1. HannahAlpenglow

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    The founder/royal founder/benefactorpledge reward offers for every single pledge with tax free deeds stated they would only be available via the pledges and not in the store or in game.
     
  2. Barugon

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    I don't recall then ever saying that. In fact, I specifically remember them saying that keep and castle deeds would be available through other means.

    [edit] http://sotawiki.net/sota/Lord_of_the_Manor_(Founder)
     
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  3. King Robert

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    Yes, my point was only Lords of the Manner were to have Castle Deeds, Dukes to have Keep deeds, etc. Otherwise to allow upgrades (outside of POT deeds) takes from us that for which we paid. Much money, as I recall.
     
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  4. HannahAlpenglow

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    It was said, it was in writing in the pledge offer.

    Go check historical pledge pages, but they had this wording -

    This lot size only available through pledge purchase; not available in Add-On Store nor in-game)

    Barugon, the link you added is not the official pledge page (you linked sotawiki), what I reference is from the Port pledge pages directly, though have to way back machine them now.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20151021192326/https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=35139
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  5. King Robert

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    I am sure they will honor their pledge rewards. The ones they have been forced to modify by technical circumstances are entirely understandable. And they are at least trying (hard) to provide another reward for the one lost. They will not dishonor their pledge backers. I believe in them. As a LoM2 (twice), a Duke (twice) and a Lord of the Isle (once). And a Blood Req. and Met. Town owner (on the map). I trust their word.
     
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  6. Barugon

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    At that time, it was the only way to get them. I don't see the words "promise" or "exclusive".
    Post a link.
     
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  7. HannahAlpenglow

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    These are already available, King Robert. Anyone with a tax free deed can make it a tax free castle, right now.

    Barugon, link added. If you think that meant exclusive deeds only at one point in time, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m not going to go dig up more about how these were marketed. If you are cool with it, by all means buy it.
     
  8. King Robert

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  9. King Robert

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  10. King Robert

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    it is clear what was interpreted by all; they were exclusive. Thus the blood deeds were only POT Castle Deeds.
     
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  11. King Robert

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  12. Black Tortoise

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    How productive is arguing this way?

    How does associating skepticism about the health of the game with recent innovations to bring in revenue help the game grow and the company stay healthy? By the way, have you seen the > 160k in stretch goal $$$ Port got so far this month?

    How does lawyering Port in this manner contribute to the health and success of SoTA?

    My disclaimer: I would prefer that all pledge things remain in their original state and intention, and that all pledge rewards be delivered as originally designed and discussed. I also wanted the spiritual successor to Ultima Online! I would prefer, above all, that SoTA remain an actively developed game and Port to continue developing in this current independent fashion. Thus I would accept whatever changes to pledge rewards are necessary to keep the company afloat. I would trust Port to minimize alterations to any designs regarding pledge rewards and delivery, cuz Im pretty sure theyd like to deliver as much as possible as well.

    Please keep in mind this is some cowboy company bravado - SoTA has no stakeholders with no stake in the game. SoTA is not developed to the liking of advertisers or other sectors of commerce with no real stake in the culture of gaming. SoTA is operated by its own developers, which is kind of a big deal. Its also kind of a new deal, and its pretty impossible to predict the future in a market like this.

    Please set your expectations accordingly. To say there are bumps in the road is quite inadequate. There is no road, they are paving a new one. Future prediction: Episode 2 will not be implemented exactly as theyre describing right now ;)

    People care, they devote differing levels of energy do different things.

    Yes, I think the pledges would have been sold just fine. People wanted this game to happen. I dont think its initial success was contingent on such exclusivity regarding this one detail.

    Using language like "forgotten" and "promise" isnt helpful, its detracting from the game culture, and Port is clearly doing the best they can to keep this going. They dont *want* to change the terms of pledges, but need to to keep the company growing. Would you rather just play the game in offline mode by yourself forever?

    Hint: its a great sign; theyre innovating, discovering their markets, and continuing the development of their product.

    By the way, I dont mean anything I am saying personally, this is all a reaction to hearing these attitudes so frequently. My you is pointed at everyone. I think you, Hanna, contribute great things to this game, and you have awesome outfits.


    Did you buy yours just so you could profit off of it? If the answer is no, then what have you lost? If the answer is yes, then why havent you sold long ago?

    Also, for how many avatars, and how often, do you think upgrades to Castles will occur? Do you really think the world is just going to be crowded with castles now? And even if that would happen, whats wrong with it?

    Do you all really think Port have some malicious, or otherwise unethical, desires and designs to sell its customers out? Do you think they operate with intentions to devalue our investments? Do you think there are better options and plans for revenue and growth?
     
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  13. King Robert

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    @Black Tortoise were your theory correct, since the economy is so much better now than when the Kickstarter was launched, how do you explain the more modest interest in expensive pledges? Especially when the game is so good now?
    I believe in @Lord British and have backed him. I trust he will honor his pledges.
     
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  14. HannahAlpenglow

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    You are probably right Black Tortise, there isn’t much point arguing about it and I was too harsh above. Hopefully it works well for Port. But again a big change affecting past promises just gets dropped out there with no communication or forethought.

    It just frustrates me that they can’t at least say
    “we screwed up in making these deeds pledge only, we have to pivot off that to grow, here’s why...”. Instead they just drop a change, act like it is the best thing ever, and ignore people who might be affected - people who helped make the game possible originally.

    As I have said before, it is not a problem that Port needs to make big changes to have the game survive and grow, it is the way they execute and communicate this stuff that is the problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  15. Kara Brae

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    It is dismaying to see promises broken, but I am convinced that the Devs aren't doing it willingly. They realized that many original promises were a barrier to the game's success, so they have to either renege or give up on the game.

    I have a tax-free village deed, but I don't have the ability to make it into a castle deed without spending a fortune, and I doubt that many people do. Luckily for me, I have no interest in such a deed. I actually would like a town-sized lot to have a bigger back yard, but the thought of having to unclaim my beloved current lot and finding a new town lot to move to is very daunting. And even the cost of upgrading to a town lot deed is too much for me to consider. So I doubt that I will ever upgrade.
     
  16. Godra

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    I would love to upgrade my Duke Keep Deed to a Castle Deed, but I don’t have enough COTO’s and too damn expensive to obtain them from Port and even for igg it’s like 8,000 per COTO and that price has been increasing steadily. So I don’t think I will be upgrading that, but I may increase my POT TF Village deed to a Town size. That’s more affordable for me.

    @DarkStarr

    I would rather buy COTOs from Port to purchase a Keep size home to fit my Keep lot; if Port could create some. I mean, if you are creating a Castle size home for the new Lord/Lady of the Isle bundles, why not make them for Keep Size too. Port probably will have other size bundles, but I don’t plan on spending a fortune for a bundle that has physical benefits (office tour, dinner and drinks...) that I won’t use. Offer a similar bundle for less with just the digital items. I feel that is more attractive to your base. Also, I don’t see attracting new players that see a $7,000 price tag ona bundle. If you plan on offering lower priced bundles again, then I suggest getting them up for purchase sooner than later. I am excited for this year with the plans you have and look forward to what you will create, but I still have my reservations with the past broken promises.
     
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  17. Daxxe Diggler

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    I look at it this way. There were probably a lot of people who would have liked to purchase the LOTM (or other high level) pledges back when they were available, but either didn't have the money to do so or didn't even know about the game at the time.

    Had either of those situations not been the case for those people, there would have been more LOTM (or other high level) pledges purchased at that time. There really wasn't a limit in number of pledges they were going to sell, only a limit in time they were available. So yes, they were "exclusive" but there could have been more sold than what were... had situations been different for current players.

    Giving these people a chance to at least upgrade their lot deeds to the largest available (regardless of whether it was promised to be exclusive) only helps the game keep alive. And, IMO, keeping the game alive is a lot more important than keeping pledge items exclusive/unavailable but not getting enough funding to keep the servers running and keep adding more fun content for us players to enjoy. Your exclusive lot size or home would be worth nothing if SOTA was no longer an active MMO.

    @King Robert & @HannahAlpenglow2 - I wholeheartedly respect the investments you made and your points about losing something you were promised. Without the huge contributions from players like you two, this game probably would never have even gotten this far. The one thing I can argue on your side for is the cost difference between what you had to pay for said items and what people can pay for them now. That truly is unfair and I feel for you there.

    However, as @Black Tortoise said, this situation is unique and the style of development really was/is paving the road as they go. I did not pledge nearly as much as either of you two, but having 2 Edelmann pledges, an Adventurer pledge, and even a Seed Invest account... I have spent more money on this game than I have spent on all my other games combined. A LOT MORE! That's not even including all the add-on store stuff I purchased along the way. However, with every dollar spent, I knew it was a gamble that this game might not ever make it. With that risk always on my mind, I had the forethought to disregard the "promises" made in the pledges and expected some of the "exclusive" things to be available to others at some point. Especially high demand items like properties, tools, crafting stations, etc. I knew at some point they would end up either selling them or making them available in some way simply due to the demand they would pull with the player base.

    Think about it, if you just found out about this game today and were going to purchase an account or POT or a house/lot combination... wouldn't you want the opportunity to be able to get the best the game had? If you couldn't get the best, would you say "Forget that game, I'll go play something else." ? I know I would if I knew I could never at least have the opportunity to acquire the best of the best stuff.

    This decision, while potentially breaking pledge promises, will undoubtedly bring in more COTO sales (both in-game, which will help the economy, and to Port directly, which will help bring in funds to further develop the game)... and as a bonus, it will attract more players who might not have played the game knowing they couldn't get the best stuff. Oh, and in addition to more COTO sales, there will be many more deco items sold because people will have lot limits raised. So again, more add-on store sales and more furniture, etc. purchased from other players in-game to help the economy. If you look at it objectively, it really is a good thing for the longevity of the game and that's pretty important in these somewhat uncertain times.
     
  18. HannahAlpenglow

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    Sadly, it is a chicken versus egg problem, with no good option out.

    They surmised at the beginning the only way to get the game made was with huge pledges from a relatively small but loyal group of backers. After all, if there were actually hundreds of thousands/millions of Ultima fans wanting this game, they could have priced all Kickstarter pledges all under $100 and had sane store pricing, right? But that was not the path taken and planted the seeds for what has come.

    To entice those large pledges, promises were made that obviously aren’t great from a long term or large player base perspective. But it was done anyways.

    Now that we have gone persistent, launched and gone free to play without much appreciable growth, I understand the need to do radical things. If you have to break promises to save the game, that’s better than no game at all.

    But to pretend these changes aren’t meaningful and just roll them out without communication shows a pretty big amount of cognitive dissonance and lack of empathy. I wish they would just own it - it won’t make everyone happy but change management actually involves frank communication to be successful. A little honesty and compassion go a long way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  19. smack

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    IIRC, the original KS pledges only had City lots for the Baron, Duke and LotM tiers. They later added Keep and Castle sized lots after some lobbying from the higher tier backers.

    Also, the Keep and Castle lots were supposed to be exclusive to the pledges and the wording in the pledge descriptions for Duke/LotM stated this:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20141224232737/https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=35139
    That said, there was still confusion about this, which prompted this response from Darkstarr:
    It seems they have maintained that to some degree, with making taxable / POT-only versions available while maintaining the Place-Anywhere Tax-Free deeds exclusive. Deed upgrades are now challenging that and there's no clear response yet.

    If we kept with the original intent, then there would be no deed upgrades to Keep or Castle for Place-Anywhere Tax-Free deed types. If it it's a taxable deed or POT-only deed, then those could be upgraded to Keep and Castle sizes, while maintaining their taxes and POT-only limitations.

    But who knows... :rolleyes:
     
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  20. HannahAlpenglow

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    Indeed, who knows these days.

    At any rate, apologies for all of my discussions stirring things up here. While I think they are valid and important, I think I am just shouting at the wind these days and should just fade on. It has been an interesting ride.
     
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