Likely no “soft wipe” for episode 2

Anybody know what chris was talking bout when he mentioned “scaling” as a alternative?

 

I would refer you to the bandwagon post of weins but i admit it's pretty hard to look up with 18 pages ongoing ^^
There are different ways to do scaling.
Either you scale the character to the level of the instance (e.g. if the instance has adv lvl 100 the chars basic stats get raised to what a ad lvl 100 char should have) or you scale the instance to the char (char adv lvl 25 and every instance you enter will scale automatically to lvl 25). But there are possibly thousand other ways and mix ups to do this.
What he was EXACTLY thinking i don't know of course.
Hope that helps anyway ;-)

 

I took it that Port are determined that any player can start any episode at any level, like reading books set in the same universe but not a story continuation in sequence. This is good for revenue also, as new players can jump in for Episode 2 and bypass 1. I also get a sense that E2 will be much more polished as a NPE and 'sticky' as Chris says. This indicates that the episode stories may not be sequential., but that doesn't stop them being related and being pulled together in E5. The thing I like about this, as with much of Ports' work is that it 'breaks the mold' of conventional expansions (zzzz..) where its basically the same old same old but at a higher level range.

That said... I felt Port got a bit of a shock at the reaction here and instead are looking at scaling. Such that for a level 100 player coming in to E2 from E1 the Boss mob in the E2 dungeon will be a similar challenge to the challenge it presents for a new player (all be that new player levelled to the appropriate point in the story or the mob design to have a decent crack at it) Scaling would also work similarly in all other scenes as they are instanced..

 

That sounds like the relationship between Marrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Maybe they should drop the numbering, because it makes it sound like everyone should start in Ep. 1. It could help with the framing (I know the Elder Scrolls series is numbered too, but for some reason it's not at the forefront of the concept)

 

Well i mean episode 1 isnt called shroud episode 1 its called shroud forsaken virtues. Just refer to them as episodes because thats whats planned but its not named yet

 

why would we/ I want scaling?
if I enter a zone and the creature gets stronger as I get stronger wouldn't it be best if I stay at a low level and keep my monsters at a low level too?
If I get a little bit stronger why would I want the thing I couldn't hardly beat, also get that little bit stronger as well?
honestly I would rather a soft wipe (a problem I can over come) over this mess that will perma handicap me

 

Can they not do the opposite of what was mentioned of upping the scale of XP until you hit your ep 1 XP.

Just put a couple of new player scenes in, will be needed to explain how the game works anyway. These scenes scale quest XP and mob XP up based on your level. Explain this is not the norm. Player can go back and do episode 1 or continue in the fast track scene to be able to jump straight to episode 2. So if you are less adventure level than whatever the target level is, say 80 or whatever you get insane adventure XP reward until you have caught up with the required target level for episode 2 start of main quest.

Leave those of us that leveled in episode 1 alone, if you didn't make that level in episode 1 you can go to episode 2 fast track scenes to catch up.

With episode 3 and diminishing returns the level you at by the end of episode 2 will probably be good enough for episode 3 - 5 starts and wipes are not even relevant, it just more story and mechanics rather than more "power"

Regards
Spung

 

If Episode 2 requires a reset or weakening of my character, there will be a large yard sale in Jade Valley and I'll go find another game to start over in. If Chris "Atos" Spears is looking to kill the game, that would be a good way to do it.

 

I always looked at the subsequent episodes as expansions, but it appears they are treating episode two as a second attempt at a launch.

 

when i read the kickstarter it siad they would be stand alone games. Like ultima I, Ultima II, etc.

by not requiring a second install this is already better than i thought it would be

 

Like I said, I'll go find another game to play if a reset is their plan for Ep2. If I'm starting over from scratch, there is no reason to stick with SOTA.

 

I'd like to hear what alternatives they are discussing.

Today's livestream, Chris mentioned another possibility. Taking the billions in experience we gained in skills and putting them into the pool.

dunno why they are stuck on that idea. Of starting over again. Even with ep 2-5 being self contained games, if we're not an MMO then that would make sense. Like all the Ultima games we keep talking about. Those are all solo games cept for OU if I recall.

But if we are an MMO... well... that's a tough pill to swallow. I don't get it.

 

Each episode is separate. There no guarantee your build or even the current combat system will even exist in episode 2. Restricting them to keeping the existing skill trees and systems is daft. It will just be more of the same A strategy that hasn't got this game very far.

 

So it would make sense to wait until EP5 comes out then you can start over again. That's what I'm reading.

 

Not really episode 5 systems, lands, items, etc., don't necessarily exist in episode 1 and vice versa. Waiting for episode 5 does nothing for you for the prior 4 episodes.

 

Well if it's a standalone game, then get a new engine to have nice looking graphics and better performance. Then it's a new game.

Using the same engine, game mechanics, and all the rest except some new content? That's the same game, just new content. I would even go so far as to call it as a paid DLC rather than a real expansion.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the devs aren't so stupid to actually believe people would just accept a character reset to scratch. I'm confident they would know doing that is the end of the game as the most invested people would leave.

 

Its the same as Ultima vii and serpent isle are completely separate games with the same engine and mechanics. Or crusader no remorse and crusader no regret. And there's no reason the game mechanics need to be the same in episode 2. Importing your character from ep 1 would force the same mechanics and make it effectively dlc. Besides, you wouldn't be getting wiped, in episode 1 you'd have everything you ever had. There's nothing to wipe in episode 2.

 

Scaling character to instance is bad

• Doesn't allow for self-improvement or revisiting an area once you're stronger to try again - because it gets stronger too. Can be frustrating.
• Basically just gimps your character, invalidates months/years of character development
• Bad for player retention - "Why level up if I can't use it?"
• Based on current loot implementation, instance-scale up will likely be less reward for significantly more effort.
• In the context of SotA, this sort of scaling would almost always result in a skillcap situation; scaling avatars *up* presents a challenge (i.e., would the game just 'pretend' you'd levelled skills you hadn't?)

Scaling instance to character is also bad, but has potential if done correctly, or offered as option.

• If scaling is automatic/ forced, same problem as above (frustration as no improvement/revisit when stronger methodology)
• Allows things like "choose your tier" - play default instance or harder modes (Lost Vale already has this tech)
• Potential to allow player to choose harder difficulty of less lucrative/unvisited scenes
• Absolutely requires that reward/loot be similarly scaled otherwise actually punishes players for levelling up.
• Potential for several tier selections/scales with upper/lower threshold. IE, this is a Tier 3 scene, but you can run it as Tier 5 or Tier 8 if you feel like it for a harder or group experience.
• However, throwing a person into a tier based on Alvl alone limits viability, (scene may be impossible for some builds)

I'm cautious of scaling in general, because of how our skill system works. Some skill trees take significantly more investment to return the same level of power, like several orders of magnitude. Maxing out a weapon tree to grandmaster for 20 million or so vs. the 200 million you'd need to get equal DPS out of a magic tree; front loaded skills, passives, the "str vs int" problem, etc. The nature of our skill system is a curve, just cranking up mob HP/damage by "scaling" is going to create a world in which the higher level you are, the longer everything will take and the rewards are already not worth it for most higher tier scenes.

The option to 'scale up' is a good way to get the best of both worlds without people having it 'inflicted' on them. Scaling up will have better rewards, but you could choose not to do it if you use an unconventional build, are slower, or are just not in the mood for a whiteknuckle experience and just want to go chop some wood. Scaling up also would breathe new life into a lot of the largely abandoned Tier 1-3 scenes that are quickly outgrown by the time a new avatar finishes the outskirts and typically are only visited for blessings or 1-off quests.

 

People weren't requiring them to keep the exciting skill trees and systems. We keep asking them to rework/fix them, and episode 2 was presented as the time a lot of that would happen.

I don't think even they are following the "each episode is separate" scheme now. Numerous times we've asked them to fix the quest system in Episode 1, and their response has been essentially "We'll fix it in episode 2"... which doesn't make a lot of sense if episode 2 was going to be a standalone game. Dungeons were going to be Ep.2, but now they're in episode 1? Does that mean they won't be in episode 2?

Which leads me to other things that are daft, such as ultimately having to split their time between maintaining 5 different games, instead of centralizing around one. They'd likely have the quest and combat systems, for instance, as re-usable libraries, but would have to still deal with separate integration with each game, and dealing with the nuances between them.

It's also daft to split the playerbase across 5 different games, particularly when MMOs are designed to be time-wasters, and slow people down, requiring huge investments (see: attenuation in particular).

Having 5 separate games makes very little sense... but then again, that original concept hatched long ago, when the game was supposed to be much more single-player centric, and a lot less MMO-y.

 

Depending on how its handled I don't have a problem with scaling up but i DO have a problem with scaling down.

Having an arbitrary level set to a scene to say "you need to be adventure level 80 to enter here!" and then if you want to try it at level 20 it will bump you to 80 I do not have an issue with. It gives people a chance to try things that are out of the scope of their character and can create fun adventures. It also means that while you can try it now you also know that you can go become stronger and try it again later with a better chance of success.

Walking into a scene as a level 120 and the system saying "your past 2 years of play time are irrelevant, you are level 80 in this scene" is a whole different pile of crap.