POLL: Your opinion of the NPC Dialog/Quest User Interface

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vladamir Begemot, Mar 8, 2019.

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Groups of 3, answer once per group, Like, Don't Care, or Don't Like.

  1. I like the Dialog User Interface

    25 vote(s)
    20.7%
  2. I don't care about the Dialog User Interface, one way or the other

    9 vote(s)
    7.4%
  3. I don't like the Dialog User Interface

    79 vote(s)
    65.3%
  4. I like the font size as it is

    21 vote(s)
    17.4%
  5. I don't care about the font size

    25 vote(s)
    20.7%
  6. I don't like the font size or would like more choices

    55 vote(s)
    45.5%
  7. I like the CONTINUE button and how it functions

    16 vote(s)
    13.2%
  8. I don't care about the CONTINUE button

    31 vote(s)
    25.6%
  9. I don't like the CONTINUE button and how it functions

    51 vote(s)
    42.1%
  10. I like having to scroll back up to see dialog

    9 vote(s)
    7.4%
  11. I don't care about having to scroll back up

    15 vote(s)
    12.4%
  12. I don't like having to scroll back up to see dialog

    79 vote(s)
    65.3%
  13. I like the keyword system

    54 vote(s)
    44.6%
  14. I don't care about the keyword system

    18 vote(s)
    14.9%
  15. I don't like the keyword system

    37 vote(s)
    30.6%
  16. I like the dark color scheme

    32 vote(s)
    26.4%
  17. I don't care about the color scheme

    37 vote(s)
    30.6%
  18. I don't like the dark color scheme or would like more choices

    30 vote(s)
    24.8%
  19. I like the position of the dialog window

    25 vote(s)
    20.7%
  20. I don't care about the position

    30 vote(s)
    24.8%
  21. I don't like the position of the dialog window

    42 vote(s)
    34.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Alleine Dragonfyre

    Alleine Dragonfyre Avatar

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    Not a kind way to put it, considering you seem to be a fan of Garriott's games, but yeah the UI needs work. We need to be able to move everything around, to start.
     
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  2. Sergorn

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    Just because I'm a fan of Richard Garriott doesn't mean I should agree and accept with everything he does. It might not seem a "kind" way to put it : but I'm simply stating it as it is. Game has been offcially out for a year now... and they still haven't done a new UI even though it should been #1 priority because a good UI IS important. It's one of the first things a new player see when starting a game and yes it CAN drives people both by how it looks and how t plays. The little changes they made over the year (like changing the color scheme) basically amounted to putting a bandaid on a wooden leg.

    The irony here is that thinking back to some of the very earlier release dialogue was actually much more immersive when it just appeared as emote over NPCS's heads. There were issues (notably how the timing was off between emote and text) but nothing that couldn't have been fixed and improved.

    Either way you know there is something seriously wrong when even Ultima VII had a better dialogue interface than Lord British's latest game. And that's 27 years old game !

    -Sergorn
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  3. ephialtes

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    By comparison the UI from 2013 (by Atos ?) looks good to me (at 3 min 44 s):

    At least, I don't need a magnifying glass to read the NPC conversations and there are fewer annoying icons on the screen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  4. Astirian

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    There was a huge post-Steve Jobs push in UI trends towards the death of skeuomorphism, that was probably fine for business and lifestyle apps but certainly not for games which are much more of an art form.

    In any case, I do hope it makes a come back as evidenced by this article:
    https://envato.com/blog/skeuomorphism-is-back/

    A dialogue window in an immersive RPG is not meant to be flat and functional, it's intent should be to promote immersion. We're intended to immerse ourselves in a fantasy world are we not?

    I leave you with this:

    Good flat design in a game:

    [​IMG]


    Skeuomorphic to the last.

    [​IMG]


    Isometric style. Close to what we have but I really feel this works best (only works?) with an isometric camera.

    [​IMG]


    Minimalist, you need voice acting for this. Or some form of Simlish maybe? Intense and dynamic close-ups.

    [​IMG]


    JRPG style. Think Guild Wars 2.

    [​IMG]


    First Person.

    [​IMG]


    And finally, portrait based. Quite immersive on a low budget if you ask me.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Vladamir Begemot

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    Nice article, there's a lot of attractive UI elements in it.

    Same with a bunch of these interfaces, most of them are very readable.

    The isometric one is closest to ours, the second one, after Wasteland, with 9 options, is almost as hard to read as our interface, but not quite. The colors at least give some break to what you're reading.

    So without a doubt, every UI here is better than ours, even though I would really not like to see the 9 option one either.
     
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  6. smack

    smack Avatar

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    They definitely should look at all of the other RPGs and MMOs out there just to get some ideas. And good point about some UI designs that might only be appropriate for that type of game, such as isometric RPGs. I think perhaps they should look at ESO.

    In the example below, a few key things stand out. The NPC is entirely visible, so it can convey animations or emotes. The NPC dialog UI is to the right of that and has plenty of space for text and convo options. The chatbox is separate and at the bottom left.

    [​IMG]

    However, you aren't limited to that and can have a different view such as this:
    [​IMG]

    This next example also shows the similar design but without the chatbox. But of note here is the greyed out convo option that was already used during this dialog session.
    [​IMG]

    This final example from ESO shows how the quest system is integrated with the NPC dialog UI. You can hover over the item for details / comparison and even choose not to complete the quest yet. There isn't any "hand item in" transaction UI like we have for SotA and I wonder if they'll keep that, as perhaps it should just simply be automatic. Another thing to note is the onscreen text that shows completion of a step in the quest or completion of the quest itself. SotA has something similar as part of its tutorial tip system, but that's not integrated into the quest system, as we never see any onscreen text that we've started a quest, completed a step or the entire quest itself.
    [​IMG]

    I'm not suggesting they copy this but only offer this up because it reuses some of the designs that they wanted for SotA. That is, they want you to see the NPC emoting since they dislike flavor text. And they don't need to draw any portraits as they already have the NPC model being the focal point. And there's a clear separation between NPC dialog and all other chat windows. But I'm sure there are other UI designs that can fit for SotA.

    What's missing here is the keyword system and free-form text input box. That remains to be seen if they are going to retain those elements as part of their whole quest system redesign, which I hope includes the UI redesign and not just some underlying code refactoring.

    Also, we haven't even talked about any sort of quest tracking system, be it the journal, minimap or compass or other UI element to facilitate this.

    And I'm going to assume that they'll retain the barks, where you see some non-interactive dialog above the NPCs head as you move about the world.
     
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  7. Nasse666

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    I don´t normally write forums but this is so important thing that I have to say may opinion.

    I have played Sota about 2500 hours and I like this game very much. But dialog UI is maybe the most terrible one what I have ever seen and I have played lot of RPG:s since Ultima IV.

    I agree 100% what Sergorn and Vladamir has said about dialog UI

    Lastly I want to wish luck to developers and hope that you make wise decisions.:)
     
  8. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    This is a great topic but also even though this topic tries to discuss and address one particular aspect of the problems with the quest system other important concerns are brought to the forefront imo. The reason I don't like key words for this game is because I feel we have too small of a team to do it justice. Multiple choices would have been much more manageable in this low budget game. Then hearing things said like 'when we bring in the world builders' as who will account for episode 2 content it does make me wonder who will handle all these proposed ideas and changes players have in mind for the team to take on in regards to the quest system, ui improvements, improved journal system.

    One problem we have always had in providing valuable feedback for the good of the game is that while we see it as good for the game will it be done?

    I hate so much that we are a low budget crowd funded game but that is what this is. So we keep trying but in my a bit jaded mind after years and years of being here still supporting the game worry that perhaps complex, expensive ideas won't necessarily go anywhere. Just a thought though and always hoping to be proved wrong. We need more than world builders to help the problems.
     
  9. macnlos

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    If you believe this, then you aren't you saying Episode 2 is a pipe dream. Because EPS2 could be compared to complex and expensive idea. I think you are on to something.
     
  10. Astirian

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    Ah yes ESO! It didn't occur to me to present that as an option. Glad you posted it! I've played that a little bit and to be honest I never had a problem with the dialogue UI, like... It didn't even register for me, it just works. It's a really good example of something that does its job and is reasonably pleasant on the eye.

    I totally agree with you too, it ticks so many of Port\LB's boxes. @Lord British

    Here's a hacky version of it I did in 5 mins with a textbox, keywords, goodbye etc...

    [​IMG]

    (Ignore the keywords I used, poor Zulana here would be terribly confused.)

    I hope they keep the barks alright, it draws attention and adds to the immersion imho. I think I almost preferred it when they had a bit of a speech bubble too...
     
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  11. ephialtes

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    I am not entirely sure that Garriott's original goal of a minimalist UI has been completely achieved:

    "The demo, similar to one shown off last week at the Rooster Teeth Expo, starts with Garriott's character in search for wood that he can use to craft a chair. The combat is very bare-bones at this point in development, says Garriott, though he intends to keep the UI as minimalist as possible so as not to obstruct the "porthole" into the fantasy world of the game."
    https://www.polygon.com/2013/7/12/4...-us-through-an-11-minute-shroud-of-the-avatar
     
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  12. Chatele

    Chatele Avatar

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    It needs to be fixed big time. But if there were no quests, well, I would not be here. I love quests, Sota needs to fix it and the journal needs an overhaul. Sota would make a huge mistake if they dumped quests all together, without them, it would be an even crappier grind fest...
     
  13. Astirian

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    Caveat: I love the game, these guys are heroes, logging in now more than I ever have. My heart bleeds a little (a lot?) for Off-line mode. I'm seeing loads of players on the Overworld!

    I honestly think what happened was, they just got used to the placeholder-y UI elements (OR it's coming from the top? ... ... OR most likely it's priorities in other areas) - In their defense additionally, I believe it could also be developer blinders, you work on something so long your objectivity starts to fade... BUT! You must remain true to your vision as well! It's a trickier balance than it seems.

    Maybe they just saw Tyranny's dialogue box (the 9 option one Vlad's referring to) and went screw it, that works, everyone just loooves Obsidian Entertainment (including me! Honest, I have a T-Shirt). But didn't factor in the camera mode? Isometric vs. 3rd Person Close-Up?

    I think the UI improvements they made so far should be encouraged but there's an evident lack in UI polish (Same might be said for Offline mode from what I've read, like re-spawn rules, quests etc...). Things like: some windows remember where you drag them, others do not, the lack of kerning on the recipe book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning), most windows defaulting to the top left screen co-ordinates and not having a pleasing margin or default position. Margins are UI 101! The map loading performance, the loading text is centered but the logout text is offset etc... The devil is in the detail.

    First thing I'd do to the box we currently have is round the corners and expand the margins out a bit from the text, enlarge the font, then raise the box up a bit so we're more aware of the NPC. Then I'd work on the scrolling/continue button issues. That's from an aesthetics POV, a programmer would probably prioritise that backwards (that's fine, variety is life ;)).

    I totally understand work on new-player experience*, performance*, QoL*, core systems like fishing* (with bonuses to agriculture*), kiiinda low hanging (but delicious) fruit like player-made dungeons*, seasonal bosses* (NOT because "Let's do Easter Eggs! Yaaay!" but because, hey! Now we have boss mechanics <- Highlight these more maybe :)? The mechanics, not the fluff for the love of Krampus!), and minimising any P2W misconception => Store changes, CotO changes, dynamic sales*, Fantastic job on the Crown Store!* (Even though it doesn't remember where I drag it... Grr).

    *Seriously, all these Port guys work so hard! @DarkStarr @Chris @Lord British

    But the first thing the player sees after starting the game is the Dialogue UI.

    Getting rid of quests would be like me saying "I'm Irish but feck the Celtic stuff and my legacy, I don't need it. I'm even quitting St. Paddy's Day and ditching my accent."
    :D




    P.S: If you click on the legacy keyword it sprouts a bunch of shamrocks, rainbows and gold.
     
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  14. Astirian

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  15. Feeyo

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    ugh, the result is pretty painful to look at. But I am happy I am not alone with the selected options ;)
     
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  16. Rhiannon

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    I didn't chose an option about the key word system but had a comment that wasn't addressed in the poll: what about keywords that aren't an option to chose but you need it to further the quest. I would guess this was by design however I'm not that good with puzzles in general. I had to use a wiki and this community to figure out a key word on one of the virtue quests. I personally don't care for that. I was very frustrated and it soured me on the virtue quests. It was a word I couldn't "guess" myself. If all the other words are there to be clicked to get information, why not that one?
     
  17. Andrew Silverston

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    As bad as things are with their small team and small budget, they could literally make a contest and allow volunteers help with this kind of thing. They do use player submitted movies for game promotion, so they could as well use player submitted UI to improve quality of the game a bit and reward the winner with some good amount of COTOS because this sort of project takes quite a bit of time. I mean we are all human here, we understand that they are small team and multiple people would probably volunteer to help make their game feel better. It's like writing a mod, which a lot of people enjoy doing. But then again we don't how much of a game code they would have to expose, which they probably wouldn't want to do.
     
  18. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    That's one of the reasons why I recommend(ed) to get rid of the input line. It implies we could enter alot of keywords or whole sentences - but this is not given - and this leads to irritation and annoying moments ...
    The flow of story feeling is always broken by such things :(
    It remembers "good old" 80's text adventures with 2 word parser - it was often awful to find out, what combination of words a developer imagined to solve a quest / situation ...
     
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  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    I forgot to put the Quest hand in system in the Poll, but really should have. Every single new player video I've watched has them scratching their head from a couple minutes to literally days trying to figure out how it works.
     
  20. Astirian

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    I was thinking about this again and you know, even if they don't plan to revisit the dialogue box, I still think a couple of small changes would make it easier on the eye and enhance presentation; namely a bit more padding and some rounded edges perhaps.

    Basically something like this:
    [​IMG]

    Versus the status quo:
    [​IMG]
     
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