Why don't the devs...

But they also have grind, yes (which was @Alleine Dragonfyre's point)?

 

But the grind is not THE end game. It's the path to end game. There is a huge difference.

Wow:
You grind dungeons, to get better gear, to grind dungeons, to get better gear, to grind dungeons, to get better gear.
You also get achievements for finishing high lvl pvm content at the same time.
You get a feeling of progression ( even its level/skill capped game ), when you can enter next tier raids etc.
Raiding is the end game.

UO:
You grind to get levels, you grind to get gears.
You enter end game, doing champs, farming high end content. Pvp
No need to grind for ever.
Crafting is not grind.
End game is killing the high end content. There is lots of it, no need to sit in one place, everyday. Champions, gauntlet, pvp, paragons.

Neocron:
You grind levels, you grind gear. Once you are done, start pvp.

Sota:
Grind for xp at UT, to grind xp faster at UT.
What do you actually do when you are leveled up? What is high enought?
If you play alone, what does this sandbox offer? Only way to enjoy the content when playing alone, is to grind more and more, then more and more.
Getting crafting skills high enought to matter, is huge grind.
Of all the games that I have played, SotA is worst on grind aspect. Grind for just sake of grind.

 

I felt a great need to come in and agree with a point just like this one.

Crafting as a major final point of gameplay, really, truly, needs some refinement. For the low end of crafter-character up to the elite-end of the spectrum. There should be goals for the best Crafters still playing, to work towards. And MORE importantly there ought to be meaningful things for beginner up to non-GM crafters to incrementally accomplish along such a path. The long-standing excuse that only Bzus can change crafting in any way, needs to stop being an excuse and become his primary focus.

The idea of having 200 in a skill only equates to increased wasted effort in all senses, and that simply should not be. There should absolutely be defined rewards for focusing YEARS of gained XP on a single skill. Especially with regard to crafting, as there is no "Upper Tears" for crafting experience.

If Chris really wants this game to survive, crafting needs to be compelling and reinvigorated with quests like bulk orders that give a hard to earn reward.. and so on.

There has to be a big injection of creative ideas that are implemented in the next quarter.

 

This game was stated as having a never ending leveling... However, there is not enough high end content to keep players interest. The devs are creating fantastic crafting/decorating content for those interested. They are not putting anywhere close the effort for the PVE and subsequently the PVP sides of the game. There's more to the game than just playing Sims. It's admirable and respectable to to do... but it's not the end all be all.

 

I mentioned this on my quitting post. The adventuring side is just grinding exp so you can grind more xp quicker. It's happened to so many of my friends and so many others. I just hope the non-adventurers understand why we leave before it's too late.

 

Heck yeah there is! there are many. Even some that do make you grind some, but there is useful loot or some other type of progression that makes it seem less grindy, not so in SotA.

As they say you just have to wonder wisely!

 

Okay, what are they? I'm genuinely interested.

 

I could give you examples of ones that I find less grindy, but how would that help you? You need to adventure out and explore for yourself. Especially considering that a game being a grind is kind of subjective, even though many of the posts one the forums seems to agree that SotA is pretty much a grind.

 

The thing is, you don't have to grind, but people grind because they are used to it from other games. And then when they get to the end-game, they continue to grind to get better gear so they can do more grind.

I have been AL 95 for a few months now, and have only ever done UT twice. (two sessions, not two cycles) I try to play the economic game, buying and selling stuff, so I'm fine there, and more players makes that better, even without more content. I also like to explore, but I know I can't expect too much of that from a game that hasn't even had a proper first expansion yet. There are plenty of games where you have to grind just to be able to reach many parts of the map, either gated at zone lines or mobs being more aggressive than normal or such, but that's not part of the SotA design. I think you should be able to walk almost anywhere with a low-level character, with proper caution or even sneaking, and not get beaten to a pulp the moment you step inside a "high-level" zone.

So are you basically saying there is no end-game, but people grind to get to this missing end-game, and then are angry that there is no end-game after grinding to get to it?

If the person grinding had looked ahead, there would be clearly nothing special to do, and no reason to steamroll grind. Slow down, smell the flowers, try some other stuff.

We don't have legendary type gear which you build up from grinding, it's even a design goal that the best gear should be crafted, so that's right out. But of course we don't have much end-game content, because it's a game with no expansions yet! WoW, UO, FFXI/FFXIV, all of those have been around through multiple expansions over many years since the original release. SotA has barely had a year since its official release.

And people in FFXI also grind for better gear so they can grind for better better gear, etc., GOTO 10. I'm away from the game for six months at a time (the time between "return" weeks where old players can play for free) only to see the same people still grinding the same things. (And then I started another grindy artifact weapon last time, just because, but I got all the pre-reqs done, the fun part, so all I need to do is grind a lot of one kind of endgame currency! For a meme artifact! Woo-hoo!)

HEY EVERYONE, STOP COMPARING SotA WITH GAMES THAT HAVE MULTIPLE EXPANSIONS AS THOUGH IT SHOULD HAVE ALL THE SAME THINGS IN THE FIRST RELEASE.

Just because we've been playing it for 4+ years doesn't mean those are the same as post-release years. That was us getting to play SotA in a state when most games would be under development, either closed or beta only.

Yeah, and SotA doesn't make you grind. Tell me where it does. People grind because they've been conditioned to from years of these old games that make you grind to get to expansion content.

Just because there's no limit (200 skill would take you years for just one skill) doesn't mean you have to keep raising the skills. And it has been learned from other games that if the dev team spends all their time chasing the 1% who obsessively grind and steamroll content, content for the rest of the players gets ignored, and the game turns into yet another edition of Endgame-R-Us™. Play our new expansion, with 10 more levels of Power Creep™!

Who made you grind? Why were you grinding? Did you grind just because you could? That would not be the game's fault.

 

Hahaha that’s funny!!

 

That's the only direction this is going. With all the skeptics shooting down the idea of a soft wipe... Episode 2 will just carry on with no changes to experience. Always and upward.

 

I just like knowing other games that are out there, so it'd be useful. I've played my share fair, and I've no intention (at least for now) to not play SOTA, but sometimes I need a break.

 

Who made me grind?
What else is there?
Having no end game, is not something you fix with expansions. There literally is nothing to do, after lvl 60. All the scenes melt to one. Everything starts to require groups or high level character, so, off to grind.

You have to realise, that there are players out there, with other interests than smelling the flowers. Some, like me, look for good solo content. Its quite impossible in Sota, because skill/content is impossible to balance. No matter what, if you want to take on the hard content, you need high skills and gear, so grinding is the way.

 

This conversation has taken a strange turn since it began, but it is an interesting one. It illustrates different playstyles and expectations enjoying the game in different ways.

This is my second MMO since playing UO way back when. UO had some grind. There were things like the bonewall for polishing off high level skills (it was the original UT nearly 20 years ago) and then there was the reaper forest north of Minoc for raising the huge pain that was the magic resistance skill. It wasn't too much grind, though, because everyone was equal in their skill cap inevitably.

This compares quite differently to my SotA experience. I enjoyed exploring and adventuring and challenging myself until... about 2 months ago. Right around the time I turned 100 I started running out of places to explore. I've tackled most of the challenges.

My second MMO experience was different from UO. It was in some ways a sign of things to come. Elite Dangerous is the ultimate sandbox - literally the whole damn Galaxy at your finger tips but everything - even exploring - inevitably became a grind. It seemed inescapable. Eventually I spent several days achieving a personal goal (the meat and potatoes of sandbox RPGs): I spent several days jumping star to star to the most distant human outpost 20,000 light years from Earth. I had my fun in that desolate but beautiful place. When the time came to return to Earth-space to resume my career as a freelancer, I balked. The return journey was a 20,000 step staircase. It would be a week long grind and I just had no appetite for it at all. I've tried to go back and play again, but once my interest was shattered by the grind, I couldn't get interested again.

I'm an adventurer who has run out of adventure. Only the social component of the game keeps me going. I'm raising Armor Weakpoints from 115 to 120 - a colossal effort for minimum return, and what keeps me going are my friends who also have their hamster wheels spinning.

I love the game. It's been great. I hope there will be some new adventures soon.

 

the only way they are going to know what they are doing is working is actually playing the game.

 

On a side note, I just watched two YouTube videos on a couple of other games. The first was on Elder Scroll Blades and the other was on Anthem. In each video the youtuber asked the question " why don't the Devs play the game?" So I guess this isn't just a small company problem, but a larger problem in the industry.

 

1 million times this. And UI is a subtle(or not so subtle) thing that sets the tone for your whole experience.

 

Riiiiight....

 

…..The Devs take out the being slowed when going through woods and stuff on the overland map? If there is a legitimate reason for that then fine. When I run across the land I typically go the fastest route following roads. I spend more time travelling on foot than actually getting to where I need to be to actually PLAY! In turn I don't spend as much time playing the game in that area I tend to cut it short since it took so much time to get there.( I don't teleport to friends much) like I said if there is a legitimate reason in the future then so be it, but it is a waste of time ATM!

 

I usually prefer teleport to zone instead, its fast to get where I want and not being slowed at all