Meaningful PVP

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Antrax Artek, May 1, 2019.

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  1. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

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    Problem is why should i go to Elysium Mines PVP if my earning is the same of the private mode one and I also risk to be ransomed and lose a part of what I produced? This is why higher rewards are needed, because no one is masochist ( atleast not everyone) and of course having same zone but safe, gives more rewards, so since I am risking to lose much more than what i did in my grinding time, i need more rewards, or i simpy choose to take the safe path, because it worth more. At the end of the day, even with boosted loot in PVP zone, the reward will be the same of PVE only zone or maybe less, because the PVP player risk to be killed and lose what he did. Average ransom of a players who deosn't use a loot bag or something to reduce the ransom costs is from 1k to 20k, if you use a loot bag you can reduce your chance to have expensinve stuffs being looted, so average ransoms is probably 1-8k.
    Let me make an example, if I gather 100 gold ore, which worth 4.5/5k ( right?) but i got killed and ransomed for let's say 5k, my earning is null, instead if I was in a safe zone and I gathered 100 gold ore my earning is 5k and I can't lose that earning if I am not dumb and delete the resources gathered.

    I understand Elysium is just an example, and I am using it as example too for explain you my point of view, but it works in that way for every map.
     
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  2. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    Mate, i see, i think there was a misunderstanding on both points ;)

    About the Open World part:
    -When i say more rewarding i didn't refer to double loots, double exp or double resources gathering but instead more challenging and rewarding at the same time, faster respawn, more mobs and more resources nodes since it is a multiplayer only and pvp zone.

    About the Random boss spawns:
    -I was refering (I didn't think it was necessary to specify it) to pvers that want to play together with pvpers and do pvp-pve contents even if they're not good in pvp, not forcing who doesn't want to deal with pvp at all.

    I tried to make all points so as to avoid totally to make the pve only players feel forced in any way to pvp, but to don't force pvpers to play out of pvp zones.
    As you can see i even spoken about removing unique pve and decos drop from there.
     
  3. stefania1988

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    Good post Antrax. I think a good working faction system would make loads of people excited and return to the game.
     
  4. golruul

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    I'm thinking you, Antrax, and I have a fundamental disagreement on what it means to PvP. I play PvP games for the fun and thrill of killing other players (this could be done individually like a duel or via more organized play like clans/guilds fighting each other). There are no incentives needed nor are any expected. If I die I lose money, xp, whatever. How much I lose depends on the game. I don't demand/expect the developers to compensate me either directly or indirectly (like via more gold/resources). If I fight other players there's always a risk that I lose more than them.

    Only in this game have I encountered players demanding incentives to PvP. It's a completely foreign concept to me and makes no sense.

    You're focused on resource output. If you get killed in a PvP zone, you might lose the resources you're gathering. That's true. I don't disagree with that. But, to me, that's the risk you run when you go PvP. I don't see a need for developers to "compensate" you.
     
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  5. majoria70

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    I know I was just mentioning it not meaning that you had said it. I just feel we can do better about reasons to pvp than looting at least most of the time except in certain places if it must be.
     
  6. CatweazleX

    CatweazleX Avatar

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    They already tiered down the PvP Zones to T4 loot. Also, at least in Verdantis Shardfall, people spawn at the last known position instead of random one. It looks like, that Port. is already on the way to make PvP Areas more then worthless.
    You get more loot in any PvE T5 zone then in a T5 PvP zone. That started in R64. Before that people got some percentage more of all resources also higher chance of loot bundles. Yes there still more nodes... EMPTY ONES.

    I do passive PvP. I like gathering things, crafting and selling crafted goods (the market is broken, and with adding items instead of recipes this release it seems Port. want it like this). Killing mobs is gathering XP and some gold/resources. The PvP areas where they was, before the nerving take place, where better. Because i can gather with higher risk and i expect more and better resources for this. Gathering there is more dangerous and i have to train PvP skills.
    The first time i was gathering resource in PvP areas i was happy to find chaos pollen and a lot of obsidian chips, only to find out they are worth nothing. The chip drop was raised everywhere and chaos pollen... only needed by people that gather them themself.
    Fat and animal bones are a joke. I asked more then one time to make fat useable for cooking...

    A agree to @Dhanas. PvP areas should give more loot and also loot that is not available or in low quantities elsewhere. Eg. Obsidian Chips, coal, wax, ... something like that. And for Chaos pollen they should be more useful for everyone.
    My point for meaningful PvP is, that zones with better resources and also resources that are only available there, are PvP zones. Gatherers can bring such resources, or products crafted from them, to the market. I also want to see that Shardfalls and Ruins that are not used for the main quest are raised in there Tier level. T6 and T8. The Fall is already T10, but now resources there.
    If people want resources from such areas they are either higher skilled gatherers or buy it from the player market. To ensure that the selling price to not going through the roof, resources should be available in good quantities.
    And this is not a bad game design. Even not for @golruul who is playing a fps like http://sauerbraten.org/. It is not meant to pull the weak ones in, it is meant as a more demanding gathering. Beside of being able to kill mobs, such gatherers have to learn some PvP skill.

    My list for people like playing in an unprotected world (like UO, UO:T2A) aka passive open world pvp:
    - more resources (either filled nodes and/or more loot) in PvP zones. Number thrown into the room: 20%
    - more resources when flagged in PvE zones. Number thrown into room: 10%
    - resources only available in PvP zones, needed by everyone.
    - rare resources only available in PvP zones that are only usable in PvP
    - (resources only available in PvP areas to be used for castle sieges (in recipes for crafting catapults for example))
    - one or two Dungeon rooms only available in PvP areas beside the dungeon rooms already available in PvE areas. The one or two rooms need body parts in there recipe. It shouldn't be to easy to have such a encounter room in your dungeon. See it like a trophy.
    - After killing a player the cooldown to unflag should be 7 days. -Or- they stay flagged for the people they killed for 7 days while they are unflagged for others.
    - The 'no ransom' should provide at least a empty gravestone to be able to gather body parts. This are trophies.
    - Ransom in 'no ransom' towns might by 10 times the adventuring level in igg.
    - Raise Tier level of PvP Areas not used in the main story. T6 and T8 areas are missing.
    - Remove the level cap from Opalis Ruins. Capped areas are asked a thousand time but not used. Obalis Ruins is capped since ages.
    - Concentrate on Obsidian Trials: add a queue -> people get a message when there are enough. Let players chose the mode: Free for all, Capture the flag, Group vs. Group. etc. Make the Skull Coins useable for major repair again.

    Please add player vendors to the game that items that are gathered in PvP areas can be sold to the ones that do not like to gather in PvP Zones.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  7. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Skill equalizing, not skill capping.

    I hear the top pvpers say it's all about personal skills not character skills.
     
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  8. CatweazleX

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    Experience in PvP is more important then character skill/items. But character skills/items are not unimportant.
    How to you want to equalize personal skill? Do you want to mutilate everyone in RL? Reduce everyone to the least common dominator?
     
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  9. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Exactly this.
     
  10. Dhanas

    Dhanas Avatar

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    In other game PVP has a meaning and rewards that's why there are no needed incentives. Let's make some example: World of Warcraft is moslty a PVE game but there is a PVP part, arenas and BGs mostly, from last release there is also an xp incentive for flag PVP in the open world. If I join a Battleground in World of Warcraft I am rewarded with xp, gear and honor points, I am not loosing anything, because I don't use any reagent and I don't lose any ransom, but i get reward if I win, being flagged in the overworld gives you 30% more experience and you don't lose reagents, repair kit or any ransom if you die.

    Elder Scroll online is mostly a PVE, RPG game, but has a PVP part, zone control in Cyrodil which provide you experience, money and gear, lately it added also Battlegrounds where you receive xp and money if you and you don't spend any reagent or repair kit or you don't lose any ransom if you die.

    Those 2 were both mostly PVE themepark game with istanced PVP, let's take also in account some sandbox PVP game like Albion. Safe zones have a modest reward but you don't lose anything if you die, you don't consume reagent but you have to repair gear for a couple of money. Red and Black zones full PVP and full loot, you lose everything if you die and you can be looted, but you acced to some exclusive resources needed for both PVP and PVE and crafting, if you are a PVE only player you are forced to go in full loot zones to make high end dungeon and gather resources ( or you can always choose to buy from other players using shop).

    SOTA isn't a full PVP game, so It's ok we don't have EXCLUSIVE PVE item in PVP zone, I am ok with that, but fighting other players in SOTA makes you lose reagents, repair kit, ancient essences, and if you die also ransoms, all of this without any kind fo reward.

    One day I spent couple of hours doing Obsidian Trials, I spent lot in reagents, repair kits, ancient essences and got nothing at the end of the day i was down of 30k and earned nothing.

    All those games are the most populated and played game at the moment, there should be a reason.
     
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  11. majoria70

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    Now what would we do if we did not have ransom? any ideas? It doesn't have to be there just because we have it. We need to break down the barriers and imagine life in Sota with no ransom and an improved fun pvp system where skill, challenge, excitement, fun time events, quests etc are there. When just and true are key in the world. Still voting no ransom. Ok now I'm done for another post that falls in the black hole or possibly.
     
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  12. Vladamir Begemot

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    The opposite, equalize the character skill (at least for one game mode in the Trials (ie, not just reduce skills but set everyones skills to 100, thus making it equal) and Castle Sieges), and lets see what player skill looks like.

    As an example, I have personally met people in the Outskirts, brand new players, interested in PvP, but the only answer that can be given to them now is "Grind until all skills you will use are 100".

    And there went another PvPer.

    I don't know why the Devs totally forget about anyone who hasn't been an uber grinder, it's the same in Dungeons, where a Tier 1 will murder anyone that isn't Tier 5 skills or higher. So basically, "Sorry noobs, no PvP or dungeons until you've put in at least 50 hours if you are fast, 100+ if you're normal".
     
  13. jschoice

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    Antrax, I really agree with many of your points in this post. I was never an arena guy so I could take it or leave it. I have always been an open world PvPer who enjoy capture points and fighting over resources.


    Vladamir you are right on this point however, I don't think it needs to be that way. Let me share with you my UO story.

    When I first logged into UO many years ago, I remember stepping out of the guard zone near the small Brit bank to cut down trees. The moment I did I was killed over and over by a reds named Fidel Castro and Wolf. I literally had no skills and they killed me over and over again for an hour. While restocking in Brit, I met another new player who was experiencing the same thing. We thought teaming up would work. Well it didn't because we have no skills developed. After another 20 minutes of dying, I thought about closing the game but said I will give it another go. So we ventured out and when the two reds tried to kill us yet again. This group of 5 players in Blue and Black came to our defense they killed the two reds and gave us all the loot.

    I thought it was the coolest thing ever. The had OO over their heads and when I asked what that meant they said they are The Obsidian Order. They defend the innocent people of the realm. I was like wow that is awesome can I join and they said you can't join the OO as it is a invite only guild but they were a sub guild of the Knights of the Alliance. I was more than welcome to join them. KoA took us in and geared us and trained us. We sat in a small house and raised our skills together as a guild. The OO members taught us trick for fighting and how to do combos with spells they taught us the importance of cross healing. As a new player I was motivated to get better and I had a guild that helped foster that a brotherhood. After a lot of practice, I was able to try out and make it into the elite OO. I was now a defender of the innocent and we would protect miners, protect guilds doing dungeon runs, come to assist people who were being camped by griefers.

    So we need to get back to that mentality. We need PvP guilds to recruit and help players develop their skills. We need more rivalries in the game. I remember the rival guilds, UOF, TC, NbK, RED. We disliked each other but we respected each other.

    You don't need to be 100 AL to be effective in SotA group PvP. At AL 80 with good tactics and good communication you can handle higher players. You have to know when to pick your battles and when to run. Even when Artifacts came into UO and unbalanced things. The OO was strong because we had superior cross healing and communication.

    Man I miss those days
     
  14. Lazarus Long

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    I know and for PvP to have ANY meaning... IMHO Full Loot is the only option to make it so.

    That's the point of my post.
     
  15. Spinok

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  16. eli

    eli Avatar

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    I think floral patterns would be tasteful for the curtains in the staterooms. Something to distract from the dreary ice and sea. Even on a ship as luxurious and formal as the Titanic, a simple little natural element can bring you back to a tropical state of mind.
     
  17. CatweazleX

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    Setting the skill of everyone to the same value is still character skill and not personal skill. Setting everyones skills to the same value and "equalize" item buffs will bring out the personal skill... PvP experienced players still have an advantage.
    They only way to survive PvP is training.
    Anyway Obsidian Trails can be used as test bed for every controlled non-open world PvP. That is only one zone they need to work on to find out what people like, what works.

    And yes low tier and mid tier PvP'ers are missing (the ones they like to do PvP). May some of the Tier 1 - 4 areas are set to PvP (a few, not the ones with quests and puzzels) in each region. And the Outskirts may become a PvP Arena, may a castle basement is used for this, only enough to test how PvP might work in SotA. But the duel option is available from start. Also player owned towns are able to provide PvP Arenas / basements / dungeons and can list this on their message boards.
    Btw: in Ardoris is a Group vs. Group Arena....
     
  18. Violet Ronso

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    In some ways this is very true, but equal mechanical skilled players will see the edge pop with the skill levels. What I would love to see is pvp zones tiered by difficulty and caapped by tier, so a low tier pvp zone could have a lvl 60 skill cap, meaning a low level might still have lower skill, but it will be barely visible at that point, meanwhile all the 120 Adv Lvl dudes can head there and still enjoy pvp at that level and get a decent challenge still, then you make a lvl 80, 100, 120 and uncapped tiers, and youve got yourself a playground for EVERYONE.

    @Antrax Artek You have the perfect sum-up of everything I would love to see implemented for PvP in this game. The "PvP Currency" from normal activities in PvP zones is one of the best concepts I've seen in games, and those games have been the ones where I have enjoyed PvP the most, because it gives people an incentive to go in a PvP zone, and brings competition to the field with a real objective more than just "kill or be killed"
     
  19. majoria70

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    This game is different in that it is being made for the players. It is funded by the players, made for the players. Devs have always said that. We have always had a say to some degree even if we waited for that day to happen for years. Now it is time. Many systems of this game are still not completed even though the Devs did feel the need to mark the game completed not all systems are completed. So we give our feedback and as mentioned PvP has always been a battle on what to make it so imo it did not get made complete. So no it is not the final product and there are a lot of fun things that can still be added for all such as a faction type system, timed events, achievements, and more. There is enough room for many ideas.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  20. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Thank you for the post @Antrax Artek.

    I won't comment on any of the specifics of it, as I long ago made a vow that I would (as someone who is unlikely ever to participate) never comment on the specifics of how PvP is run in SotA so long as it doesn't violate the promise that it will always be consensual.

    I would, though, suggest that you use this as a proposal and see if you can develop consensus among the PvP community that this does, in fact, satisfy the definition of "Meaningful" for the greatest part of the PvP community.
     
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