Please, for the Love of the Virtues, Fix the Maps!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alleine Dragonfyre, May 13, 2019.

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  1. Alleine Dragonfyre

    Alleine Dragonfyre Avatar

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    hey, so i'm going all over the forums complaining about the maps today, it occurred to me that i'd be less of a troll if i just made a post about it.

    working maps in a world of novia's size are fundamental, non-optional and expected by the gaming community. i stressed this in the past and i'm stressing it today. this is not just a small pet peeve.

    first some history for you guys kinda new here. the maps are fan-developed yes! isn't that cool? before the maps were in-game they were an external web page only. that web page still exists! before the rights were purchased by portalarium, the community had quite a debate over their necessity. yes, we actually argued if maps were, indeed, necessary and so i made a poll about it. those in favor, not surprisingly, were the majority. we were in business!

    portalarium then bought the maps! the cool fan who made them? well Jacob White mysteriously disappeared right after the sale. but that's a story, that i know nothing about, for another day. but thanks for listening to us anyway, portalarium. kudos for that. and thanks fan-person who made the maps. without you, we'd have zip.

    so we now have maps. yay! maps! we can see where we're at in the world. new players won't take hours to find their way out of tiny zones! residents can give directions to their dance parties just marking x on map screenshot! community guide creators now have something to work with for their guides. YES! no tabbing out of the game for the map. and best of all, we're now looking even more like a a game with a massive world one can easily get lost in - an actual MMO!

    well...no, actually. that's not quite how it turned out, sadly, my friends.


    first, why does opening the map completely freeze my entire computer for 10 seconds? i know this is not an isolated issue. when streaming, i go into a cold sweat if i hit "m" by accident.

    more importantly however are the following issues:
    1. in my non-scientific observation only about 50% of the zones have maps.
    2. of those 50%, most remain so unfinished that they really don't help navigation at all
    3. why does owls head have street names and landmarks and stuff but no other town does? yeah, its the first town. so what? everyone here is equally important, remember?
    i rallied for maps in-game over a year ago. now i'm sort of sorry i did because, imho, they do more to hinder than help. here's why:
    1. they freeze the game on opening
    2. over 50% of the 50% of the maps that exist offer no help in the form of npc, building or quest locations.
    3. they are a blatant hint to new people that the game is fundamentally flawed
    4. there is disparity represented on the maps. i'm not sure if it's $$$ or squeaky wheels that gets some POT and NPC towns better maps than others, but yeah, there is that
    why do maps matter?
    1. well, there's the obvious fact that we need to know where we are, especially new players
    2. they usually help with questing or, at least, npc or building locations
    3. for a lot of players, the map alone can set the tone for their entire game experience
    4. they can be a source of revenue
    5. wasn't there a cartography skill and treasure hunting on the horizon?
    how can maps be a source of revenue?
    1. remember i mentioned owl's head above? ever see that nifty radio tower? well, we could raise funds for custom map markers or even choose from a selection.
    2. instead of giving people, yet more, deco during fundraising, why not fundraise for a certain zone map to be redone?
      there's no shame in that. you guys basically just bought the map *maker* and starting maps. now it's time to update. this problem isn't going to go away. it's going to get worse as you add more zones. so make it like the first or second thing on the rewards list and call it a "Community Reward."
      i personally would rather have a good zone map than a recolour of something i don't need. i'd throw money at you if i knew it was going to actually improving broken things. you could even apply that model to other stuff that needs updating. most of us will be confident our money is going towards building the game and not speeding towards being the online medieval fantasy sims game no one expected with housing deco. you would have to make delivery promises just like the other rewards though. not optional.
    3. crowns (a modest, affordable amount) for store map markers
    4. no one has any idea of what the impact the state of the maps has on new players but it cannot be good. player retention is always the paramount goal here, right? retained, happy players = $$$
    some external articles on the importance of maps in-game:
    thank you for reading my post about maps. i'm pretty sure raph koster would agree with most of this ;)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  2. that_shawn_guy

    that_shawn_guy Bug Hunter

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    Also, a number of POT governors have lost the ability to update the maps of their own towns. In the case of newer POTs, they've never had the ability to add labels, etc.
     
  3. Stryker Sparhawk

    Stryker Sparhawk Avatar

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    Are new POTs even getting a map?
     
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  4. kl4nk

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    Wasnt Kor the guy editing maps? Then got fired? Wheres is he now, i miss that guy.
     
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  5. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    Currently, the maps are hand drawn and take hours and hours to just make 1, to make it work with the in game system.

    They eventually want to completely automate this task, but unfortunately we aren’t there yet.

    Basic Core Functionality really should be a high priority.
     
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  6. Ravalox

    Ravalox Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    New POTs should have a map since the POTs use a set number of scene templates. The maps may not be rotated correctly, but they should exist.
     
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  7. Dhanas

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    I got map in my POT thanks to Kor, couple of weeks before he got fired. I am not aware how people are getting maps in their pot without talking with him.
     
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  8. Undone

    Undone Trap Master Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Sannio updates me every release with POT changes/updates/additions/etc; typically within 1-2 days of the release I have them all updated and functioning (in regards to avatar position & rotation). Speaking of rotation - all maps are rotated correctly as we do not have a simple method to rotate the art displayed. This means that up does not always equate to North but the avatar icon should point in the correct direction. Governor POT editing permissions was never finished after we took it over and I do not believe it works for anyone except for devs at the moment. Any old data from when the site was Jakub driven still exists which is why some towns like Owlshead have street names etc. However, we did do a pass a while back that dynamically populates the map in-game with POIs that your character has discovered - including quests etc. Displaying dynamic LOTs works for a large majority of maps; unfortunately for some maps things are mirrored and the scale is off - this is a mess of coordinate transforms and such that I described in more detail here. This is further complicated by the fact that the data is being pulled from multiple locations (Unity scene files & database data). Regardless, we recognize that a lot of these little things are not functioning 100%; we have a backlog of bugs and tasks related to this but at this point they are of low priority.
     
  9. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    However Jakub did it when he was active, it didn't take hours and hours per scene.
    But, whatever........

    @Undone
    I think if you took a poll of active players, you'd see they'd like maps MOVED UP IN PRIORITY.
    But, whatever.........
     
  10. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

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    The strength of Jakub's solution was that it was a community driven effort where any/every player could update and fix things. (Same principle as a wiki).

    Since the team is small and will remain small for a while, then I'd strongly advice going back to that principle. It is a real cost saver which also knits the community closer together.

    So there should be a basis for an executive decision - if the maps are going to be a low priority for a longer while, 1y, then you would be better off letting players back in to edit - while if the maps will be bumped in priority after E2 launch then no worries.
     
  11. oplek

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    It should be removed from the game, and kept in QA, until it's reached a more complete state. It's kind of an embarrassment when new players find it.

    This is one of the ongoing issues for the game... half-finished things are allowed to be live, giving the game a half-finished pre-alpha feel. It's one of the big reasons that nearly every reviewer comes along and makes that comment.

    It's better to have no functionality than half-complete functionality. Make sure that what's in the game is complete.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  12. rebbieforever

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    As someone who played a lot of games I think one of the problems is to start with we dont have a normal minimap system with use of the ingame engine, so instead the game calls the frontend that is the map container and pulls data from basically everywhere like you, Undone, said. Existence of maps and minimap is one of the very important features to attract the not-so-hardcore type of players. That said, we do recognise you all got your hands full - but it will be better for you as well longterm since you want your creations to thrive and happy(and more) players spend more.
     
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  13. Birko

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  14. Cinder Sear

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    I think the in-game map system should be removed, and cartography should come online. I prefer hand-held maps (with, or without a character position marker) in my inventory, like the very first maps we had. It was a lot more immersive, and no loading times. Preferably we can add notes to the maps with a pencil or something. If no character position marker, hopefully it is fairly clear where you are at all times, using a combination of compass and landmarks, as it should be (or maybe just location coordinates on the map?).
     
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  15. Spoon

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    Would have been great if they would have simply mimicked the minecraft map features for cartography. (With better suited gfx of course). No need for a design document, just copy something that is already working in a successful game.
    https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Map
     
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  16. Forum Name

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    Agreed - going into scenes and getting the "no map data" message for so many of them has an impact that you describe. Unfortunately, the map system was actually highlighted as a feature on the email blast asking people to come back. It just screams, "come try out the half finished map system, and then explore what other systems may be in a similar unfinished state!". Ugh.

    I wonder what feedback/analytics are out there showing Port that maps are low priority; it just seems like an important feature that you know almost all early new players will encounter.
     
  17. rebbieforever

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    Its worse if new players find absolutely no map and especially no minimap. Even UO has nowadays on its enhanced client at least.
     
  18. Parson Barr

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    I'll bet if they published how to read the data someone would whip it up for them.
     
  19. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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  20. Shift

    Shift Avatar

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    Here you go Devs!

     
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