Crafting Specialisation information needed.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scoffer, May 14, 2019.

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  1. Daxxe Diggler

    Daxxe Diggler Avatar

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    In crafting, RNG is bad. Period.

    Nobody likes to spend hours or days collecting resources to craft a piece of armor or weapon and then not end up with something they are happy with. When the end result is based on "luck" even though you use the same materials every time (and waste over and over until you get something you like) ... that's just frustrating and not fun.

    When I make a sandwich for lunch, I want it to be a sandwich that resembles the ingredients I put in it. I don't want to mix up some tuna with onions, carrots, celery, relish and mayo... put it in between two pieces of toasted wheat bread... and then take a bite to hope I got a tuna sandwich and not a chicken salad sandwich!

    Crafted items should always resemble the ingredients used to make them, and differ only when you change the ingredients. Sure, the quality and/or the stat number can vary based on your skill level. But the stats added to them should not be a roll of the dice.

    I've always felt that a crafting system where recipes make a finite product based on the ingredients used is the best option. Each stat added should be controlled by a certain type of ingredient used. Recipes shouldn't be limited to a fixed list of items... but should allow for the crafter to be creative in making the item.

    For example, to make a sword you need only to include basic components: a hilt and a blade. However, the crafting system should allow for the maker to use hilts and blades made of varying materials... but also should allow us to add additional things like gems, special tempering oils, magical spells, etc. All of the possible components could be crafted ahead of time but some of them should be gotten as rare (and I don't mean uncommon.. I mean RARE) mob drops that will add diversity and add special powers that really make that sword unique.

    We should also be able to have skills that can modify the products effectiveness. For example, maybe we could choose to add a fuller to the sword to make it lighter and attack faster? Maybe we could choose to add extra base materials to beef it up and improve durability? Maybe we could add a special sharpening stone to add damage to the blade? Maybe we could choose to add a gem slot so that we could add an additional gem? There are endless possibilities and these types of things could all be skills that get learned as a bonus when we level up our crafting skill... which would give us something to work for other than a skill number!

    Adding any additional ingredients or modification skills should come with some risk (ie perhaps reduced durability or cost extra materials) and the number of extras should be limited based on your skill level. But the point here is that we should be able to determine what we want to make... based on what we put into the item and what skills we choose to add to the making of the item.

    Any stat bonus or effect should be dependent upon what went into making it and the amount of the stat or strength of the effect should be based on the quantity/quality of the ingredients coupled with your proficiency in the skills required to add them.

    To me, that would make a fantastic crafting system and would have me captivated to grind away to expand my depth of possibilities or improve specific skills that I would want to focus on. But the way it is now, there is no reason to level up a skill except to get more "possible" outcomes which may or may not even be what would prefer to add to a specific item. The upcoming crafting specialization will be nothing more than what others have said... a band aid. It won't fix crafting or make it fun. It will just require us to grind out tons of experience to be able to do what we should have been able to do from the beginning... make something we want based on what you put into it.
     
  2. SteelCore

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    I totally agree with this.

    The only things i crafted the past few weeks/months were cloaks and backpacks since they can be masterworked/enchanted. I crafted hundreds of both, invested 1000+ of gold and silver ingots and all ive got were 3 cloaks which are ok but still not what i was hoping for. And not a single backpack i would say that one would be ok. I pooled up 80 million crafting xp so far and cannot wait till specialization will get me out of this crafting nightmare.
     
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  3. Rowell

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    I completely agree with Daxxe's comment above.

    That's actually the type of system I've been working on in my spare time. The attributes and the quality of the components dictate what the end item becomes. The skill of the character has an affect on the overall quality and durability of the item. So, while using High Quality components to make a sword, if you're only just beginning in Black smithing, you won't be able to forge a sword of utter power (because your hammer strikes are clumsy, and you put too much heat in the forge..You might end up with a +2 STR sword with 70 Durability). But a master blacksmith with High Quality components could make a truly magnificent, durable sword (perhaps +15 STR and 150 Durability).

    The properties of the end item should rely on the component (ie, Iron, Copper, etc). The base durability amd base quality of effect should be based on the quality of the components (ie, a Low Quality component might add +1 to an attribute or skill, and +10 to the base durability, while a High Quality component might add +5 to an attribute, and +40 to the base durability). And the character's skill should have an impact on both the end attributes and durability of the item being created).

    If you want to interject some "randomness" into the mix, you can do a range of effect on both the attribute and durability from -2 to +2 (or something similar). For example, roll against each component to adjust the value of its attribute and durability...offset it up or down by a little. This way, not every item is exactly the same, every time.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  4. Vodalian

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    I have some concern that without randomness, there will be a template for every type of item with some small variation for different builds. The top crafters will make a few hundred of these and that's it. We all have perfect gear, but everyone is the same.
     
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  5. Malimn

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    Damn and I thought I was doing good with 33m+ Producer pool...
     
  6. Daxxe Diggler

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    Yes, but in a system like I suggested, the diversity and ability to make "special" items would come from rare mob dropped components. Not everyone would have access to the things that make the best items and there certainly wouldn't be hundreds of them available to one crafter.

    So, while there might be an abundance of similar Good-Great items crafted... there would still be a rarity on Epic-Legendary type items that could be controlled with rarity of the dropped parts. Meanwhile, even the Good-Great items will be useful to a degree to those who are still striving to get that Epic-Legendary one. I think this is better than vendor trashing 90% of the batch you make in order to get the few pieces that are useful.

    If the randomness factor was moved to the acquiring the rare components, and not in the crafting itself, there would be much less wasted base materials and the crafter won't have to labor through countless "luck" rolls to get what they are trying to make to begin with.

    Besides, randomness in the crafting process doesn't prevent what you fear. People will continue to keep trashing the junk luck items until they get the perfect combination they want anyway. All the randomness does now is prolong the result and adding a grind factor that isn't fun to anyone.

    In fact, the way it is now actually makes it easier for your fear to come true. Everyone has the same chances to produce the exact same combinations. All it takes is enough time and effort to gather enough resources and level up your skill to get access to the best stats/effects. Then, anyone can make the "template" items. In fact, some can get lucky and get their combination in just a few tries while others (who may be much higher in skill level) may have an unlucky streak and it may take them 50+ tries to get what they want.

    Randomness in crafting is unfair, frustrating, and practically makes the skill level irrelevant to a degree.
     
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  7. Astirian

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    This is actually one of the most compelling posts about crafting I've ever read. Added it to my game design notes! :)
     
  8. Vodalian

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    I can see why many are unhappy with the current system. But I don't like for super rare components to replace the randomness. That way, farming high level monsters will be the actual work and the crafting process is almost redundant. If these components are rare enough that high level players can't farm an abundance, that means the normal player will pretty much never see one. The big time crafters who would have access to these are the same that can handle today's randomness because they make large enough batches of items. At least you have some ideas for improvements though, I respect that.
     
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  9. Sara Dreygon

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    After a year this is one thing I wish would have met the release goal. I am disappointed it got pushed. The lack of priority of crafting specialization makes me wonder why Starr seemingly deemed other things a higher priority than it... Did he simply unilaterally decide crafting specialization was less cool and less sought after than baby dragons? Baby dragons are cool and all (other than the fact they replace a dragon spawn with a 1-12 serpent scale spawn) but I don't remember an entire community anxiously awaiting those as I rarely ever see players with pets out.

    The lack of communication on crafting specialization progress leaves much to be desired for everyone waiting on it. Will it be delayed a month... 6 months? No idea but I'll just keep not crafting anything that one month later could be outdated and obsolete. I am making nothing and selling nothing and it makes the economy seem very stale when in reality everyone is just in a holding pattern. But we did get baby dragons...
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  10. Cora Cuz'avich

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    ...with no icy effects. :(
     
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  11. Jefe

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    I think the concern may come with naming and scoping.

    When a new system gets released people express concern about the release of a system that seems incomplete. The announcement of crafting specialization was a panacea for a problem, but basically covers only 4/5 of the production skills based on what is communicated.

    If you only get one, then will this be a production specialization with refining specializations and harvesting specializations coming down the line in the future?

    Will cooking specialization be late to the party?

    The ability to pick from the available list vs. random is a binary thing. Is there anything beyond that such as an empowerment efficiency where the durability loss decreases based on a percentage per skill level?

    Will there be something that comes along in future that will push people to untrain the crafting xp they put in to place it somewhere else?

    I am in wait and see mode, somewhat like fertilizer. Will it cause cross crafting skill synergy or will it basically turn out as its resource material?
     
  12. Scoffer

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    Thats exactly how it works now without specialisation, the only difference is that player A spent 50k to get it and player B spent 3 million.
     
  13. King Robert

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    I for one wish changes would not render obsolete great gear made prior. I have so much amazing gear that has become lame because of game changes. Add new features that are hard to make. Allowing super crafters to make the best of everything over and over makes it just average gear. I miss when things were destroyed (but wished we got some ingredients back) else we can craft armies of ashen wands with 4/4 enchant and mastercraft which makes them just average not special. But then again I admit I am not a reliable narrative - I think I deserve the best, as reparations for my wife’s dalliances with her brother. And that pig’s luck goring of my belly.

    I miss Bessie! And her ........
     
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  14. Lazlo

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    I don't think being able to choose enchantments and masterworks would wreck the economy so much as it will just crash the value of most gear made before the change. I don't necessarily think that's such a bad thing, especially when 90+% of being a crafting vendor is trying to figure out what to do with huge piles of garbage.

    Otoh, I think a lot of people don't realize how much of a massive power up it would be to simply be able to choose mw/enc with spec. Some special components/items are very powerful and rare enough that you can't just roll hundreds of times to make it perfect.

    Waiting around to see what happens is the worst though, because no one wants to just light a mountain of mats on fire. Hopefully this will be done soon and be good. I think it definitely could be.
     
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