So...crafting spec WONT be "choose your bonuses" ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kaeshiva, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I find it difficult to follow since it seems most information is being mentioned in bits and pieces in various streams and nothing official seems to be published - but what I'm hearing is cause for concern.

    For over a year, on every "official" monthly release stream, as well as in every set of patch notes going back just as long, its been said "Crafting Specialization, Choose your Bonuses!".

    And crafters like myself who see the RNG as the epitome of everything that's wrong with the system have been waiting patiently for crafting to finally be made viable. A lot of people have stopped crafting completely, storing resources against the glorious day - (which keeps getting delayed, but hey, that's okay, it will be worth it...) when we can finally actually set out to make something we want to make without having to waste 900% additional resources on poor rolls.

    But now it seems that this will not happen? Instead, even MORE options will be added to the RNG pool, essentially making the core problem with crafting even worse - the unreliability of the system and complete and utter reliance on the slot machine.

    RNG is more tolerable in a loot situation. But when you are setting out to make something (ie CRAFT) and the resource costs are already well beyond ridiculous if you drill it down to the amount of player time required to gather said materials - it becomes untenable.

    It simply doesn't make sense in any way:

    Logically?
    Are you telling me that I'm a blacksmith who has invested enough experience to grandmaster a skill 50 times over and I still can't manage to figure out how to put a specific masterwork on it?

    Economically?
    Should it really take thousands of ingots to 'beat the rng' and make a chestpiece with the stats you actually want? This would perhaps be reasonable if it weren't for perm. durability loss but to create disposable items this is absurd.

    ...is it fun?
    No, no no no. The amount of people who show equal parts frustration and bafflement when the crafting system is explained to them, who come to me as a crafter wanting a set of gear and then are floored when I tell them to go get 20 times as many ingots as it will take because we have no control over the output and there's no guarantee that after they've spent those two weeks mining instead of enjoying the game, that we'll even be able to make the gear they want, please try again?

    I never agreed with linking the rng-fix to specialization - that just requires every crafter to make at least one alt (if not 3) to be able to craft gear. Really, this should be a core fix to the entire system. The promise of specialization band-aiding it has been the 1 thing that's kept me hopeful for crafting in this game.

    We have RNG in drops.
    We have RNG in component drops/salvage now, too.
    We have RNG in recipe acquisition - needing a RNG rare drop from a RNG rare bag.
    There is no need for additional RNG in the crafting process. You're already looking at dozens if not hundreds of hours of work to acquire and refine materials and make them into components (above and beyond actually levelling your skills).
    There is no market for most of the crap you make because it has crappy, undesired effects or the durability on it has been hosed trying to get what you actually want and skill counts for very, very little (50x GM = an extra 0.3 to a stat. )

    I'm sorry if this seems angry, but well, I'm angry. I've been waiting a year for a feature repeatedly promised month after month and it seems the rug's been pulled out from under it. I'm frustrated that I have to get my information in bits and pieces in various daytime streams and that there are no publications about this - in fact, the only official information out there in release notes is that we'll get to choose our bonuses!

    How do you justify continuing to play/invest time (or money) into a game that punishes you for advancing your character by giving you less control the higher you get? Its nonsensical. I'm not even sure where this is coming from - every crafter (and customer) I have dealt with, ever, we may disagree on what material type is best or what stat to use, but everyone agrees that the RNG is a bad, frustrating, evil thing that basically just results in people having to waste their time repeating the same actions (gathering, refining, component crafting) over and over and over with no guarantee that they'll ever get the desired result, and even if they do the item wont last.

    I have given over 10,000 hours to Sota and fully expected to play 10,000 more, but I simply can't do it if I'm just spinning my wheels getting nowhere because 95% of my time is wasted due to crappy rolls. That isn't fun - it isn't even a job, because there's no payout.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  2. Antrax Artek

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    Thanks god, "crafting spec WONT be choose your bonuses". It would literally destroy the entire crafted items economy.
     
  3. kaeshiva

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    I disagree, I think choosing bonuses would be its potential salvation.

    1. The crafted items economy is already a mess. There's no profit in crafting gear to sell.
    2. People can't find what they want (partly due to crafting system, partly due to market system)
    3. Imagine being able to actually craft-for-hire, or having the potency of your skill (or the decisions you make when putting gear together, to appeal to different types of buyers) count for something instead of everything being based on luck.

    Our current "crafted items economy" ? Needs destroying, so a new economy can emerge from the ashes, one in which crafting gear is a viable for-profit endeavour and one in which players can actually find gear to buy and wear that aren't just rng rejects.
     
  4. Antrax Artek

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    I would like to ask a question:
    Is it fun having a game where:
    • Monsters are not competitive and challenging, everyone can kill anything in solo.
    • You can craft all you want like you want choosing bonuses.
    • If you fail something your creation is not destroyed.
    • Farm resources in a private playground without any kind of share and competition.
    • Drop rarest items in game like rain.
    • Being totally protected in every task you do.
    • You're not incentivized to risk more or do something dangerous, everyone gets the same regardless of the risk and effort.
    ?

    I'm sorry but this is far away from being fun, and far away from even being a game.
    This is not the paradise of Eden where you can get all you want, when you want, how you want and just if you want, this philosophy makes people run away.

    You talked about the potency of your skills without counting that anyone can and will do it ;)

    About the ghostly new economy you mentioned, is it the one where everyone can craft their own perfect gear with several alts and no longer needs to rely on others, still continue to press towards the isolation of the player?
     
  5. kaeshiva

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    You've listed a lot of issues that aren't really related to the topic.
    People play for different reasons and have different goals.
    I actually agree that several of your points "aren't fun" some people don't want a world in which everything's casual and easy - but if you took all your points and reversed them, I think you'd be looking at something equally "not fun" for people of a different mindset - a cutthroat, hostile constantly watch-your-back competitive experience isn't for everyone, either.

    Making everything available in a "private farm playground" will push away players who want competition. Making everything solo-able (or making grouping non-viable, inefficient/pointless) will push away players who want to play cooperatively.

    There are a lot of core gameplay decisions that Sota still needs to make - no dispute there.
    But when you're looking at non-combat systems, like crafting, a system which requires a considerable time investment (and adventuring time to finance), the one thing that it needs is some consistency. Why close another door to another potential playstyle, 'the artisan?'

    So go out and fight, cooperate or not, compete or not, - is there no place for non-combatants in Sota's vision ? The people who cook the food and brew the potions and craft the gear and manage the town infrastructure and pick the crops?
     
  6. Scoffer

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    Speaking of fun.

    At the moment you can spend 50 hours mining and 5 hours smelting only to end up with something you won't wear and has no way to recoup the "cost" of making it.
    This is not fun.
    The way crafting specialisation has been talked about this will push those numbers up to 100 hours mining and 10 hours smelting to end up with something you won't wear and has no way to recoup the costs of making it.

    Adding more options to the RNG is the opposite to what crafters want.
     
  7. Vodalian

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    As a small time crafter, mostly for personal use, I like the randomness and risk/reward. Lets say I want a new piece of armor. If I end up with two decent items, I might try another MW/enchant on one of them to make it great. If it fails, I won't gamle on the last one. I have to accept that with my budget, I won't get the perfect piece this time. People may not always have realistic expectations, only the insanely rich should go for small percentage gambles. The difference between 2MW/2EN and 3MW/3EN is not game changing anyway.
     
  8. Fenrus MacRath

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    The system NEEDS an overhaul from top down. There are plenty of ways to make the crafting system challenging , without it being a random mess. Once you reach grand master, you should be given options to spend more resources to guarantee an outcome. IE 5 Silver to masterwork, 20 Silver to guarantee its + 30 Durability. % chance per pass stays in effect.
     
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  9. Fenrus MacRath

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    You could also limit the number of times in a day that a character can do an enhanced craft, by putting a 4 hour cool down on it. Being a master guarantees quality, but it also takes a LONG time to get it right
     
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  10. Hemswal The Descended

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    I'm all for less RNG but making crafting linear is a horrible idea. It would drive the prices of gear down and the materials it takes to make that gear.
     
  11. Antrax Artek

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    This is the same philosophy with which some deal with any topic "I have to have what I want, how I want , when I want, and now! Regardless of the effects this may have": Monsters, Bosses, Crafting, Gathering, PVP, PVE etc.

    Let's make a good example regardless of the fact that if you mine for 50 hours gold you will be able to do 1000+ different enchs, let's try to don't shoot random numbers to increase the credibility of our statements, this kind of thing makes any speech useless:

    @Scoffer go to mine 25.000 silver/gold ores for masterworks and enchs (total 6250+ ingots 3125 silver ingots and 3125 gold ingots)
    @Scoffer can mw and ench 3 times 208 potential perfect spears, let's say he was able to get the 3rd mw and 3rd ench on just 50 of these (puncture, legsweep and skewer damage and double str)
    @Scoffer now has 50 perfect spears
    @Scoffer has saturated the spears market, who needs a spear will buy one or two from him.

    Now expand this to all those who will do it other than @Scoffer, basically everyone who is interested in crafting.

    Result: No one will buy more spears, perfect spears price will drop drastically at the material cost, no one will need a spears crafter anymore, @Scoffer is happy cause he got what he wanted.
    Is that fair? We're not talking about a game with over 1 mil players, and even if it was, the result would be almost the same.

    Take an examination of conscience.

    And btw the only thing that would have closed the doors to the profession of the artisan indeed would be let people choose the bonus :)

    I would love to hear the opinion of top crafters like @Spinok @Elrond @Xee @ Robin Hood and so on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  12. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    What... the one that, because of RNG gaming, depends on needing to produce hundreds of (what most crafters view as) worthless items to make that one desirable piece, so you figure all the failures into the final piece's cost, even though you sell some of the lesser ones anyway?

    Who needs alts? That doesn't even make it happen FASTER, because you have to switch characters to level them. They assured the outcome you worry about the moment they decided you would be able to learn everything without limit. In a world where your character can continue to gain and become more powerful without limit or challenge or loss, the end result is that everyone will have the same character with different visual styles.
     
  13. oplek

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    Having the vendors bursting at the seams with MW rejects has driven down prices. And that's been exacerbated from the MW changes to not destroy items anymore. Which was made because people weren't happy with the overkill RNG consequences.
     
  14. Steevodeevo

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    I find myself agreeing with all arguments above! Much of what you say is complimentary, as they say you're violently agreeing in many aspects, as in crafting needs loadsa work and maybe a rethink, and that any change is risky.

    But hang on.. IF the change is to add many more crafting buff options to the RNG loop, then it is possible to double, triple or even greater make the chance of a useful, if random, attribute to pop. This would address the wastage in mats and time grinding at mining and smelting as you are much more likely to get a useful item buff. For this to be the case the buff has to be worthwhile, so that the item can be sold to someone who's build makes it of value.

    However, if it remains a random benefit it may address Antrex's point that we do not want game killing changes to crafting such that we can 'dial up' a weapon on demand with custom stats for decimating and harvesting specific mob types which would totally unbalance... well, just about everything.

    Does this not potentially* give us the best of both worlds whilst avoiding many of the risks?

    * subject to what the new bonuses are.
     
  15. Gia2

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    Rng is the reason I'm wearing sh*t since 2 years. Not goin to spend millions (again, did once) that I need months to collect for a randomic horrible craft.
    Also I'm not goin to pvp cause pvpers have way higher quality gear then me.
    Rng only makes Rmters happy
     
  16. Steevodeevo

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    Yes, yes and yes, until this. I'm not sure that is the eventual outcome, unless you're talking cosmic entropy :).

    Yes after a great many years of play, inevitably long term players will gradually acquire closer to 'the full set' of skills. But play styles, player skills, and the mind blowing range of build set ups will surely maintain diversity.

    In the world we can all shop at the same clothes shops but we all don't dress alike. If you play Poker, we all have access to the 52 cards and 4 suits but we all don't play the same way or win and lose at the same rate. Skill, diversity and human nature prevail.
     
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  17. Antrax Artek

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    Just imagine a world where everything costs the same fixed price and people can print money alone in their own private basement.
    Everyone has the same skills in everything and wear the same clothes, can choose the phone they want, the food they want, the house they want, the car they want all at the same price and at the same time they can build all of these alone at home without chance of failure or break anything and make anything identical to the best one around.

    What would the economy of this hypothetical world look like?
     
  18. Scoffer

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    Kaeshiva and I ARE some of the top crafters and have been since persistence.
     
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  19. kaeshiva

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    Your numbers are way off, sorry. You've not considered the the metal/wood needed for spears and the exceptional rate for one thing - which means we're looking at a LOT less than 50 spears for "amount of mining" (or chopping). Nor have you considered the 20 hours of refining time and the time taken to grind cash for allll that fuel.

    Next, not everyone wants the same bonuses. That's where the crafter has to make decisions about what will appeal to customer(s) and not everyone will make those same decisions, there will still be variety. There is also the option for custom work, that YOU COULD ACTUALLY PUT A PRICE ON because at the moment, making a spear to order may cost 5k or it may cost 500k for the same spear, which is stupid.

    And, there's still failures, which eat up durability, so "perfect" is a really big stretch.

    As someone with over 140 in my chosen crafting skills I can tell you that the benefit of experience investment is a joke. The potency/success increase is minimal for the cost. Honestly, there's little point in going over GM, or at best, 120 for another 1-2% (for only 8 times the cost of GM!) Making skill matter would improve things a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  20. Antrax Artek

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    Sorry but when I visited your stores I didn't find anything good, many choices in masterworks and enchantments but above all in the choice of materials were far away from an end game item.
    Be a top crafter doesn't mean having highest skill level but knowing how to combine the components and make good choices during the crafting process.

    For sure making the skill matter does not mean have bonuses chosen at will. They can work on a better % of success, increase by a lot the chance to salvage materials from crafted items, give one or two more options to choose, drastically increase the chance to get exceptional items, give the chance to reroll bonuses or remove gems using a certain item.

    PS: I own 2 perfect spears, none of these was an exceptional spear ;)
     
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