So...crafting spec WONT be "choose your bonuses" ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kaeshiva, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Sara Dreygon

    Sara Dreygon Avatar

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    I prefer not getting to choose and just having more choices (3, then 4, etc.) as you level.
     
  2. kaeshiva

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    I always assumed (perhaps I'm just a pessimist) that when they added crafting specialization, they'd crank equipment durability loss into overdrive to compensate. It would be a sensible thing to do. At the moment, turning up durability loss would be too punitive as high end items are too costly to make, but if we could pick bonuses and items were replaceable then things would be different.. Suddenly, there's recurring demand and the need for a RNG diminishes even further.

    - No more vendor glut of junk
    - Thoughtful, strategic choices rather than dumb luck
    - Higher level, more time invested crafters can make better things, but disposability gives a market for 'almost as good' items made more cheaply or by less advanced players.

    If gear wore out in a week, would there still be as strong objections to getting rid of the RNG?
     
  3. golruul

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    My small opinion:
    In general, I don't think letting players choose their enchant/masterwork is a good idea long-term.

    That said, there needs to be some features that allow us to reign in the RNG somewhat, somehow. Letting players get 1 more available choice per X skill level is a good idea so long as the total pool of choices isn't saturated with garbage. So, for example, 1 more choice (for a total of 4) at GM is great but if it means the pool that it picks from is loaded with 10x riposte per 1x of thrust, it's overall garbage.
     
  4. Violet Ronso

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    For me the perfect world would be :

    Specialization adds 1 choice per X levels
    Specialization adds 1 option per Y levels (Y is always bigger than X, at LEAST 2 times bigger)
    Specialization adds the possibility of adding a special component (either rare or in large quantities) to guarantee a certain option (costing a lot, maybe something around 10-25k worth of that component to balance things out).

    This way you can roll for a cheaper item, or put the big bucks in to guarantee your roll. Crafters wont chose this option unless it is a special order, and will charge accordingly, meanwhile they will still be able to make great gear with the random rolls, which they will have more options to chose from.
     
  5. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I'd rather see durability loss from MW/Enchants go down, or at least, the drop from failures go down. But then have the rate at which weapons wear down in use go up. Maybe even dump COTO repairs, or limit it to one. I'd much rather spend a lot of gold replacing good items with good items, than spend a ton of gold on okay items that last a while.
     
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  6. kaeshiva

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    Have for a long time been willing to have extra cost to avoid the RNG in outcome - what a great cash sink opportunity.

    Yes, that's what I meant, dura loss from "use" - if that wasn't clear.
     
  7. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Though, that (my idea and yours) conflicts with the named weapons thing they want to do. Who cares about making a sword of dragon slaying with various makers' marks if you have to throw it away in a week?
     
  8. kaeshiva

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    Maybe, but I think even the current weapon-degradataion rate already precludes making "legendary" type stuff. I can shred through a bow in a few nights of hard play to the point where it needs a COTO as it stands. Perhaps there'd need to be some other process for named/slaying weapons that increases their longevity for some sort of cost.
     
  9. belijaal

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    You're too early, I haven't even started yet.
     
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  10. majoria70

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    Well I am not against crafting specialization happening since it will add another dimension to the current crafting system we have but it won't fix the crafting system at all. It will just add another thing to grind to crafting. The thing I'm against is that we rarely address the root cause of systems in this game and continue to put band-aid upon band-aid on them. And why is this?

    EXCUSE: Always, always, always the answer is because we don't have enough funding, enough man-power, or even enough players and can you say rinse and repeat these answers since 2013?


    Taking recipes out of the crafting system and making you find them instead was a huge mistake in my opinion and why was this done? It took so much interest out of the crafting system. This imo was done because we begged for more and better loot and in my humble opinion loot was taken from what already was in existence due to the EXCUSE above.

    Also the choice to not pursue cooking as RG wanted was not done. There was a whole pod-cast on the game's systems and cooking was outlined as going to be something very interesting indeed and yet 5 years later it has one cooking skill and very little alcohol use for recipes. Also this effected brewery viability. We had planned to get lots of details for the systems of the game but such an ambitious project with the EXCUSES played a huge part imo.

    On this thread and with most others now-a-days one thing to improve one aspect of the game seems reasonable but does not fix the core and which spirals into a multitude of fixes at times. I'm sure there are more types but imo two types of crafters in this game are as some examples:

    1)merchants trying to make money in this game and want to have their goods be viable. How things will affect the economy of the game? Which can only be a speculation atm since there aren't enough players yet to determine the over-all effect again imo.


    Things to consider when voting for changes:
    -Will This make crafters goods sellable or not?
    - This may or may not depending on many factors.
    1) two things that might effect it would be supply and demand and number two the amount of players playing the game
    2) Considerations for this would be everyone can do it and improvements to the already faulty system will again get over-looked or pushed again and again) But hey lets not address that again,


    2)crafters who just enjoying playing a game with a good crafting system that is fun, interesting, challenging, and skill is rewarded

    - rewards a player when leveling up the skills in many interesting ways such as;
    - getting crafting recipes back into the crafting system as rewards. For example as you level you do find these recipes and even some special ones and that could be randomized a little
    - finding more special ingredients during crafting
    - Interesting might be discovering a new skill during crafting like being able to be better at crafting fire items because you have fire expertise
    -ability to be a unique crafter because of choices you make during the raising process and choices must be made
    - ability to feel like you are making a difference in what you craft by choices you make during crafting
    - and skill matters to your success (like failing 3 or more times when GM'd makes GM feel meaningless.) Skill level should matter and if GM is not it don't say it is GM.
    -Crafting titles awarded even for special type of crafters. Titles provide a buff.

    So while I touched on a few things still to me the main point in choices we make to improve the game should be overall of interest to improving the systems in the game. It may seem at first look that one change will make a huge difference at that very moment but overall improvement is not being addressed. In my opinion we continuously side-track the issues with the game and put band-aid after band-aid out there to please one person or other but this does not necessarily address the whole game's state. So imo band-aids are fine for a temporary fix but eventually another band-aid will be needed if the root cause is not addressed. There are a multitude of those.

    So while I can understand frustrations since I have played the game also since 2013 and continue to play it is always with a bit of heartfealt sadness that I see this trend continuing and why is that?

    Well look at the EXCUSE above for one thing and another is people are accepting of this trend and get lost in the moment of I want it now for so many little things.

    I don't say little things don't matter of course they do for the sandbox world. We do need stuff, lots of types of clothes, lots of interesting areas to explore, lots of interesting loot, lots of fun and interesting quests to do, lots of systems that leave players having fun, being challenged, feeling satisfied and rewarded.

    My question is what are band-aids going to accomplish except needing more band-aids and then what?

    So as to not sound all negative we can accomplish something from the band-aids and later when the EXCUSES are remedied we can over-haul, tear out, start-over, re-define, re-design etc and whenever we can do this what would that look like? Now that is another question for another time.

    edited
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  11. Bedawyn

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    This this this.

    It makes no sense for my starter recipe book to be filled with recipes for fish I've never even heard of, much less eaten (or that aren't actually fish), while recipes for common items aren't discoverable no matter how expert your skill level is. It makes no sense that, as a complete and utter newbie, I still had a 95% success chance of making something. The expert should have a 95% success rate for uncommon recipes, 100% for common ones, while the newbie struggles to make even a table -- it's the struggle that turns them into a not-newbie. And recipes should not be discoverable or not, flag on flag off -- it should be a scale based on how common the item is: a newbie might have only a 2% chance of being able to discover an uncommon recipe, but an expert might have an 80% chance of being able to discover it, because they know what they're doing and can figure it out from past experience. Let some recipes drop with crafting failures -- you missed what you were aiming for, but while tinkering around, discovered something else.

    Enchanting should have far less to do with your crafting skill than your skill in the related magic tree, and perhaps the astrology. Though I say that wishing there were more non-combat skills in the magic trees.

    People keep saying that removing RNG will result in everyone doing everything. But just because everyone has the potential to do everything doesn't mean that everyone WILL. Some of us actually are playing the game for the sake of relaxing and having fun and roleplaying, not trying to max everything out as quickly as possible. My blacksmith has the ability to do stonework -- but she's not GOING to, because she likes metal and glass and has no interest in stone! Neither she nor I understand why pottery and stonemasonry are even mixed up with smelting and blacksmithing in the first place.
     
  12. rebbieforever

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    It would be ok I guess even they needed to replace even once a month but that would mean the new gear pricing should cost less than the COTO price to repair it.

    Else your potential clients would rather repair with COTOs the existing gears rather than buy your wares which will sit on sellers

    Sure no RNG is convient but it has side effects and that is exactly what I fear there.

    Now if they made it less RNG, removed the meaningless options nobody wants and replace them with useful and have their chances right, then it would be already a lot better

    Edit: Speaking of repair the max dura only with COTOs they could actually change that and be a paid service by GM crafters as second possible way to repair as repairing skill isnt too useful now. That would make crafters feel more useful too. They could even have a secure interface for that without trait needed. Just you state the price of your service on your part of window, the other guy placing the items and if they both confirm to enter a repairing cutscene or something. That could offset the making money only through the sale of new gears part
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  13. Malimn

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    Never did it or heard about it.
     
  14. Malimn

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    Nope... I did not hear of it and would have been nice to get.. Again there is no "Upper Tears" for crafters and there SHOULD BE ONE!
     
  15. redfish

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    I agree with @majoria70 that there are bigger issues at play.

    I don't know how much I can productively contribute to this thread since I haven't got into high-end crafting, but to be honest, discussions about masterwork and 'end game' crafting kind of make my eyes glaze over, but only because I'm just looking for regular swords and shields, maybe with +3 if I can find them for a good price, and its not because I'm low-level, but because I don't want to spend all my time fighting dragons or going to Tier 10+ areas or what not, just to earn more gold in order to buy the expensive weapons I don't need. Too much of the game still feels like a grinding treadmill.

    And I've experimented enough with crafting to know that it feels to much like a treadmill, too. And discussions about the large amounts of materials and large amount of RNG in high-end crafting make me not interested in doing high-end crafting, just like issues with adventuring make me not interested in doing adventuring.

    I like a lot of majoria's suggestions. I'd also like to see if the devs could work in mini-games to harvesting, refining, crafting, to improve chances of the desired results. Things to improve your 'luck'. More raw materials to craft with (still only maple and pine? only one type of generic 'animal hide'?) Difference in quality for the raw materials going in (ie. quality hides). More refinements on the raw materials, and more synergy between the parts. Antrax Artek mentions that creating good items is about combining the components. Yea, more of that. And like if others said, if there is RNG, the more they can be 'controlled' and the more the player can bias them towards what they want through any of those choices in the process, the better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  16. Gia2

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    • RNG Enchant/Masterwork = 1x material cost
    • Choosen Enchant/Masterwork = 10x material cost*
    *Specialization required.

    Edit: the amount of effort, regarding the side of topics, community puts towards better shaping sota it's encomiable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  17. Nevyn Waldail

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    Do you think people buy Ferrari's because they randomly got lots of good bits of a car to put together? The idea that the economy will only thrive if it's random is ridiculous.

    if you know what your material costs are, value in your skill you can actually make a profit as a crafter. Decrease durability of items/increase wear for example when wearing an item too powerful for your level and you suddenly have a real economy instead of one where you might get lucky and be able to make some money on 1 individual piece. This would also lead to people building different sets of equipment for different tasks so even more sales. I could be wrong but I think you average crafter wants to play at being a crafter, not get rich of a random item through luck.
     
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  18. redfish

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    I think the economic issue is scarcity, which comes from rarity, plus that Chris wants to put as much "added value" in the final step as in the proceeding steps so the final piece of gear is worth more than just the cost of its materials. Part of the value in harvested materials is that they're sometimes hard to get (combat and RNG), and this adds value beyond the harvesting skills. So I think he wants to put this type of "added value" at each stage of the process and the RNG is one solution.

    But I there are just more ways to do this I think than RNG, and even for the RNG element, we could compare to combat. Combat has RNG, but there are many ways to bias the result of a fight to your favor. Player skill is the biggest one, since combat actually is a 'mini-game.' People don't think of it that way, but it is. You have the raw numbers from your skills and gear and food, but player participation and skill helps bias the end result. But then there's also smarts in setting up your deck right and equipping the right combination of gear against the right enemies in the right context. As well as knowing the market, and where to buy exactly what you need. Time spent out doing combat, too, since combat is more involved than double-clicking once at a crafting table. Its a process, that you have to go out and do.
     
  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    If I had the will to keep fighting the UI I'd pay you to make these and sell them, instead you're going to have to handle the whole thing yourself for now (unless you find another willing reseller merchant). (Don't worry, the vendor UI won't crush your soul for a long time, it'll probably be fixed before it does).

    The following will all make you a profit above what you would get by selling the raw materials, and they will move if you place your vendor in a location new players visit:


    Copper/Iron Sale Price Rounded Up
    Daggar 599
    Halberd 999
    Hand Axe 599
    Longsword 799
    Mace 599
    Spear 599
    Two Handed Axe 999
    Two Handed Hammer 999
    Two Handed Mace 999
    Two Handed Sword 999
    War Hammer 499

    Edit: If you get an exceptional you can add 200 gold on top.
     
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  20. Vladamir Begemot

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    Imagine if they had never sent out that combat poll and realized they need to add charged glyphs?

    That's where crafting is.
     
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