So...crafting spec WONT be "choose your bonuses" ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kaeshiva, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Ryodin Stormwind

    Ryodin Stormwind Avatar

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    I typically end up crafting them gear myself. It's hard to find vendors that have just basic stuff, and not everyone is inclined to craft.

    Even 1000 gold for a weapon that seems to break in a few hours of adventuring seems like a lot to newbies. Yeah, of course that kind of money is easy to make for you and I. But they are looking at it like:

    "If I have to keep dropping thousands of gold on crap weapons, armor, repair kits, potions, and scrolls, I'm never going to be able to save up to afford taxes on a house...let alone decorate it. And certainly never going to be able to afford those 100,000 gold per piece higher end armor and weapons I see on all the vendors."

    We do our best to encourage them that things get easier and more affordable, and help them where we can. However, my point is that their initial observations do not lead them to the conclusion that it's more affordable than they think. Therefore, you could surmise that those players whom aren't getting help and guidance from veteran players are leaving the game when they encounter these feelings.

    It doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's what they observe, and that's what really matters. We need to increase visibility and remove some barriers to entry. Most player vendors that are around newbie starting areas in NPC towns have overpriced junk trying to take advantage of new players. I mean in Soltown, next to the downtown section, you have a vendor which shall go unnamed selling stuff that players could buy off an NPC, for astounding prices (like 1000% markup or more). Players don't know that they can buy that stuff elsewhere, and think that is the only place to get it. They think that is the market value of those items because that is the only sample they have from which to draw conclusions.

    I'm not saying they are right. I'm saying this is the optics. There are some great vendors out there offering some great prices - I know you are one of them and helped me get on my feet as a newbie years ago. However, newbies aren't able to find those vendors many times on their own. That's the problem.


    Just to be clear, I'm not saying that its always people price gouging or trying to take advantage of newbie either. 120gp for a single teleport scroll...20-75gp! for a single potion of health when they might go through 10 in a single fight...that stuff seems absurd to newbies. Yeah, its based on the resources required to make them, but newbies don't know or care about that. They have a limited amount of gold and an even more limited understanding of the game. Making common resources and components more abundant and cheaper could go a long ways towards fixing this. For example, empty flasks are 10gp each...insane.



    Star Wars Galaxies had a global market called the Bazaar system that had a max price of 25,000 (comparable to about 5,000 IGG here I'd say). If you wanted to sell something for higher, then you were forced to put it on a personal vendor. Vendors could be searched from the Bazaar system depending on your merchant skill level, but buyers had to actually go to the vendor in order to purchase the item. The system worked great, and I think we should consider something similar here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  2. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    I am playing Conan Exiles since pre release.
    The crafting system is a rather generic survival mmo crafting system. Maybe it's one step better than Ark. It isn't very fancy at all.
    Don't get me wrong. It's ok and it works for a survival mmo. Can't see it working for an RPG though.
     
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  3. Bedawyn

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    THIS a million times.

    I don't want to derail the thread away from what crafting specialization should do, but the devs need to see the big picture and understand that crafting and the economy are inextricably tied together, and the economy and the new user experience are inextricably tied together, therefore the NUE and crafting are also inextricably tied together. If you want to keep new players, you're gonna have to fix the economy, which means both fixing crafting and keeping a better eye out for domino effects.
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    That means the system needs a balance pass, something combat gets regularly. I started a thread to list the junk so hopefully the devs will take a hard look at those and figure out how to make them into interesting choices instead of junk.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  5. Boris Mondragon

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    I have read every post on this thread and find one positive and one negative.

    The positive is that a lot of people here care for crafting and the game overall.

    The negative is that none of you have come up with a viable solution so here is one for you experts to think about and tweak. By the way I stopped MW/Enchant efforts over a year ago and just craft my stuff then take it to @Mac2 , @kaeshiva , @Scoffer or @ldykllr (Robyn Hood) to enchant/MW for a good tip+mats.

    So here is the pirate’s solution and outcomes:

    Keep the RNG with extra choices BUT set the NPC purchase price for the “JUNK” at 80% of material cost.

    1) You can craft your ass off and get a partial return on junk that does not sell while getting more crafting experience.

    2)Most of the junk out there disappears.

    3)The gatherers will make gold selling mats to the crafters and while establishing this needed business relationship will probably be able to afford and know where to buy gear. @Ryodin Stormwind , this could help your newbies in the guild.

    So in summary; @Chris , let’s give this particular crafting food chain a new kickstart and calm the mob that has torches and pitchforks at the ready “Grins”.

    R/Boris/El Pirata/Black Sails Forever
     
  6. Rowell

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    Thing is, what is considered "80% of material cost"? Is it the value that the NPC's place on raw materials? (hope you're happy getting 250g for a +12 item).
    Do you poll items on player vendors to determine the selling price of comparable items?
    How do you determine the value of an item that has no real value beyond what the players place on it? (some players sell silver ingots for cheap, some sell for way too much..which price do you use?)
     
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  7. Boris Mondragon

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    There are plenty of price guides that can be put into a formula. The crafters can make the good profit on the items that are either special order or in demand. My post was to start a baseline to tweak and a potential way to solve the current crafting dilemma.

    BMC and Sotanet have price guides as well.
     
  8. Elrond

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    The NPC price for crafted items is currently greatly undervalued . For example if you craft an item with 20 components each having a value of 100g each..the resulted item is not an item with 2000 value but with 100g value . Chris said hes looking into fixing this also ..time will tell.
     
  9. Rowell

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    Setting NPC prices to some arbitrary Player's price guide is pretty much globally setting the market value in stone. Other players will be forced to abide by the player's price guide.
    Who decides which player's price guide to use? Who keeps the npc prices current? How often are npc prices re-indexed?
     
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  10. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    Hell, the npc has to make gold too! I’d be happy if they bought crafted items for 40-50% of game material value. But the long standing “I see you have a one-in-a-million artifact sword there, of which legends only whisper! I’ll guve you 100 gp.” Type of transaction is one of the major “unfun” things about this whole game.
     
  11. Vladamir Begemot

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    Price should fluctuate by tracking current materials price.

    Even if they take the low end of current materials price, and drop that by 50%, we'd still be getting a lot more than we are now.

    But it has to track the current prices, you can't pick numbers now and expect them to make any sense this time next year.
     
  12. Boris Mondragon

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    Fair enough brother, taking in mind I just came up with something to be tweaked by the market experts of which there are many on this thread, what is your solution? Remember one thing, we are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I prefer to be part of the solution. R/Boris
     
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  13. Rowell

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    Which is a whole new level that I'm sure Port doesn't want to undertake. Hell, I tried coming up with a way to get item prices from player vendors for YEARS through the Sota API. It doesn't exist, and they're not really keen on adding it in there. Why would they do it now? It's no simple task. Given the minor upcoming update to crafting that's coming after months of fan fair and trumpets (read: underwhelming), I really don't think they want to dive into the rabbit hole of having their NPC buy back values based on a living, breathing player economy.
     
  14. Vladamir Begemot

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    Chris was reading off averages on a livestream a few weeks ago. They've got the numbers, but judging by current methods they'll probably just pick some off the top of their heads and that's what they'll be for the next few years.
     
  15. Ryodin Stormwind

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    They are already tracking it - Chris goes over it on stream like every day. They just need to compile statistics nightly or weekly. It doesn't have to be real time to the second.
     
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  16. Spungwa

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    Tracking it yes, but you have to be careful using the player economy to keep averages and then making NPC prices based on the player prices. They are 2 completely separate economies. One is to move good and gold between players, the other is just to create and destroy gold and items.

    If there is a cause and effect relationship of the NPC economy from the player economy it can be gamed.
    This economy is not that big.

    So if I sell materials to my alt at inflated prices, repeat selling the same materials using the same gold, as i control both sides of the transaction. There is no tax on doing this. I can increase the NPC buy price of crafted goods then sell all my junk creating a huge gold faucet for myself.

    This economy is not that big and the fact I can repeat this with the same materials and gold reserve makes this VERY exploitable.

    So now Port has to not only track the player economy, but actively monitor it for abuse and manipulation. Even if they catch it they have to catch it before the gold is generated and laundered.

    NOT A GOOD IDEA - It is why player and NPC economies should be completely separate and not linked.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  17. Ryodin Stormwind

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    They do that now. That's entirely why they track it.
     
  18. majoria70

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    I don't think devs can necessarily fix the economy but fixing crafting should definitely be a first step. Another thing is to get some things off NPC merchants that players could and should make and gather themselves.

    If you think about it ultima online didn't have an economy to speak of but they did have more ability and tools to offer interesting little bags of goods for sale which we do not have. In this game Players can only offer the same old same old individual purchases pushing for more and better and forgetting creative details for selling matter and give players the opportunity to compete against each other in other ways.

    Such as a big request I've had all these years is to make small bags you craft tradeable between players and selleable loaded with items on venders. Also make them dye-able. We could then name the bags interesting things like blue ballgown 5 PC set, full armor set of speed, and if you point at the set using the control key you see what is in the bag.

    Also for fun we could have grab bag type of bags to sell secrets making these type secret but buyer choice to risk that purchase. We could sell sets of things then which imo would be huge for competition.

    I would sell sets of music for example. I have songs that have up to 8 parts to them. Right now I must sell a piece of paper telling players what they are buying and advise them to mail it to me and I'll send the mentioned song parts right back to them and I would. But if they buy it and don't do that or even read the instructions on the note they are clueless of what is going on. It is just not the best way but the only option at the moment.

    I would have little bags like somebody to love 5 parts or stand by me 3 parts or 5songs by Bach, or songs by a certain artist set. Much more creative to have bags coded by devs to finally sell things. Plus the organization factor alone.

    Also setting up bulletin boards in NPC towns to advertise would help. If only players would know to read them and point at them that is. These could be meeting places too to read the adds. Limited adds could be added to them per player. I know we have the trade window now which imo helped but it disappears too easily and players entering the game game don't know what was advertised before they logged in and some players don't have access.

    edited

    also bulletin boards could offer task lists and quests.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  19. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    Agreed... EvE Online has this happening all the time, but it takes groups of players hundreds strong to manipulate markets to such a degree that huge gains can be realized. Piggy-backing on this, only a small amount of the market in that game generates currency, so manipulating them in EvE is only governing how much currency is changing hands, not how much more is coming into the game. Not the case in this neck of the gameverse... generating currency is half the npc market's reason for being here.

    With all this in consideration, I would vote No on monitoring the value of materials that can be sold for new gold and making them fluctuate artificially based on supply and demand.
     
  20. oplek

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    I've voiced this elsewhere. We're always going to have a set of problems. It only comes down to which set of problems we want. Eve Online has some (Edit) RNG with crafting, yet it has as thriving economy. The RNG solution here is because our faucet has little to no sink, because people don't want to lose stuff. That's how we fix the economy, and can remove the maddening RNG that's rife in crafting. Unfortunately, that means shifting our problems into "we don't want to lose stuff".

    The fact that people think that RNG is needed for this economy to function is indicative of just how fundamentally broken the foundations of it are.

    Edit: as I'm reminded, the invention process in EVE involves a diceroll for success - but otherwise, the entire process is mostly non-RNG. I'm fine with some RNG, but I'd prefer a 1:10 ratio, instead of the 10:1 we seem to have.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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