The RNG in masterworking/enchanting is...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oplek, Jul 9, 2019.

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The RNG in masterworking/enchanting is...

  1. Fun

    9 vote(s)
    12.7%
  2. Tolerable

    13 vote(s)
    18.3%
  3. Not fun

    49 vote(s)
    69.0%
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  1. Malimn

    Malimn Avatar

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    With the RNG we are already left with a parking lot full of junk that you cannot sell. Removing the RNG will level the playing field more because now you do not need to spend a billion gold to get that one item you want... the ONLY difference will be how strong the item is based off of the skill of the person crafting it... people will still go to the "Lamborghini's" of the world to get the best and some will go with the "Ford/GM's" of the world because they do not see the need to pay the gold for the high end item.
     
  2. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    The problem with just removing the rng is the Lamborghini will cost exactly the same to create as the Ford. So they can charge the same as the Ford and take ALL the business. Would you buy a Ford if the Lamborghini was the same price?
     
  3. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    Why would it cost the same? I don't craft, so I don't understand why this would be the case if you are making an item of lesser quality?

    Also, why wouldn't every crafter be for removing the RNG, allowing for you to pick EXACTLY what the consumer wants.? I tend to agree with @Malimn here on this. I don't buy anything anymore because it is all overpriced and doesn't give me the exact stats that I want. The whole thing really makes no sense to me, but again I am not a crafter so I could be missing something.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  4. Malimn

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    This I can agree on... which the issue SHOULD Be resolved in the actual building process itself. The more refined the process, the more expensive the material costs SHOULD be to make the parts.. You want an exceptional or higher item, it requires more fuel, more components, etc..

    You want to maintain the Lamborghini, INCREASE the cost for the UPKEEP of the item.. Maintenance process on a ford is not the same as it is on a lamborghini :)
     
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  5. Fenrus MacRath

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    95% of the time I am at a loss . Not a little loss. A BIG LOSS On a bow that I make for resale, Grey Pine Longbow Bowstaff = 3600 gold in materials, 2 Imbued elven Bowstrings @ 3000g each (LOW END ) Im in 9600 gold before I craft the bow. even at 130 carpentry, I get an exceptional 1 in 3 tries so on average, I am invested 28800 gold in each exceptional Gray Pine Longbow with Imbued elven strings. THEN 2 gems 15 Silver ingots and 15 Gold ingots , so low end say another 6000 gold. I am invested about 35,000 gold in a bow that got shite MW and enchants and no one wants, so my choices are, dump it to a vendor for 150g or sell it at one of my factory second stores for way less than whats in it. (Usually about 15K), just to move it.
     
  6. Adam Crow

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    It uses the same exact materials. Both items would have the same exact buffs on them. The only difference is one has higher level buffs.

    So for example Sara and I both make a sword. It costs us both the same because its exactly the same materials, but his is way more powerful than the one I made because his skills are higher.

    Sorry I keep using Sara as the example, but just trying to make my point and I assume most players know he is the best swordsman.

    With the addition of rerolls and a revamp on salvaging crafted gear we can lower the cost to create items AND keep the "fun" part of crafting in tact. (Fun for me anyways) I don't see how just picking buffs on an item is fun. I think most of the players pushing to remove the RNG are self sufficient types that could care less about the crafting economy/market. I think they just want an easy button and they don't want to interact with other players. But I'm not sure really, cause like I've been saying, I really don't get why removing it would be better than adding to it. It's still just a bare bone system, almost every idea I've heard from crafters is better than just removing the rng completely.
     
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  7. Spungwa

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    This would actually be a great game mechanic, move the additional cost of the higher end item on to the user rather than the crafter. Thus making the demand for lesser cheaper to maintain equipment.

    God forbid an adventurer should have to add to the gold sinks in the game. Currently the only time I give gold back to the system is when I craft. Every minute I spent adventuring just increases my wealth and the inflation in the economy.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  8. Spungwa

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    Actually for me the exact opposite, the reason I don't talk to players and try to sell my gear is that I have no way to give the person a price. Lots of new guildies ask me to make armour and the first thing they say is I want STR or I want INT on it. To which I reply then I have no idea what number of materials you need to collect or buy to give to me to make that armour for you......

    As I said in other post, the only crafters that can sell gear are crafters that are mass production and can rely on the RNG averages, no one off piece can be priced on the RNG averages.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  9. Adam Crow

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    Very true, but that is the price you pay for wanting custom made equipment currently. When someone new asks me to make them something I quickly explain how it works and make them each piece with 2 enchants and 2 masterworks. Then I give them a price for those items. If they want them they buy, if not I sell them on my vendors and make some more. Most new players are going to change builds early on anyways so it has worked out well for me.

    If we can make the crafting system more elaborate and I think concentrating on salvaging of the "junk" pieces is a huge step, we can fix the issue you have or at least make it much less painful, without causing other issues.
     
  10. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    No no, @Sara Dreygon is a perfect example and in fact has crafted almost all my entire Obisidan gear! :D

    Ok, first, thanks for explaining to a total crafting NOOB like me! :)

    Second, I can appreciate folks wanting to have fun doing this. It is a game after all, right? Yet, I still don't understand how picking buffs detracts from that. To me it's the exact opposite. The thought of having to go back and do the same thing over and over and over; wasting so much time, money and precious resources seems totally NOT FUN, lol. In fact it seems masochistic in some ways, which I get some might be into (each their own ;)). Also, I would think being able to take specific orders would encourage player interaction with one another, creating greater competition in the marketplace as consumers shop around with different crafters for the best price.

    Though like I said, what do I really know? I don't craft and will stick with my current gear made by @Sara Dreygon and @Xee for now! Both make great stuff! :)
     
  11. Fenrus MacRath

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    Its so simple to remove the RNG effect AND keep the crafting economy intact. I have said this before, I have tried to get Chris to hear it during live streams, but all to no avail.

    Give GM crafters the option to choose , standard RNG roll for 5 ingots,(like it is now ) OR pay 10X the amount of ingots for the chance to Pick any skill result that is in your current skill set. This ability will have a 24 hour cool down timer on it. The crafter will STILL have to make their % roll (So failing that 1st pass at 95% on 50 ingots... OUCH, ) and the % amount of the buffs will still be random(Example 16.8% increased damage or 17.4%, etc) This will keep players from cranking out huge amounts of legendary gear(24 hour timer) Still keep the demand for ore and things very high (50 ingots per pass vs 5) and still let players who just want to make mass amounts of gear do so at the normal costs. There are several variables that can be adjusted based on crafting skill. This way if a GM crafter wants to make a masterpiece, it will take him a week instead of 30 minutes and he will actually be able to MAKE that item.
     
  12. Spungwa

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    New to guild does not necessary mean new to game and low level where you get what you get is acceptable. For low level player, you get what you get, is how I play it, bound to be better than they have.

    But for those others, and longer standing high level guildies, i'm happy to give them the investment I put into the skill training. Less inclined to spend (and i'm not exaggerating if they give raw materials) 2-5 hours of my game time continually trying to get what they want per armour set, even if they are happy to keep supplying the materials.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  13. Barugon

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    I think they should allow us to choose the effect and there should be no more durability loss but failure destroys the item (like it did before).
     
  14. Malimn

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    Well not only that.. Make it to where a GM Crafter is needed to repair the item instead of using COTA's or repair kits. That has never made sense to me... you require GM skills to make it but not GM skills to keep it repaired to its optional condition. Sorta like saying you can use a kid out of high school to make repairs on your Lamborghini.. This way craters also have a repair service they use to gain clients or make additional gold.
     
  15. Spungwa

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    Well I think the original design was that the repair kit were supposed to be a gold sink, especially considering it cost more to craft then than buy from the NPC. But I guess that is down to player economy prices of the items, so all good, Never worked out if selling the materials to vendor was more than the repair kit NPC cost, but I assume not considering the very low NPC price of most gathered materials.

    But then to try to make the loot better they added repair kits to loot at quite a high rate. I now loot more than I will ever use, 1.5k of each and counting in my bank of all but the tool repair kits.
     
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  16. Rowell

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    Using both your examples...that means for every car that a company sells, there are 10-20 cars that are sitting in a lot somewhere, unsold, rusting out...because no one wants to buy them. The hours and money wasted on materials and labor alone would bankrupt ANY car company before the first car was sold.

    The only way your scenario happens is if the person that can make the best sword sells it for 100g (or some other low price). Otherwise, people will fill in the gaps. Dude/dudette that makes the best sword can charge any price they want. That doesn't mean that no one is going to buy swords any more, because the best swords are selling for 1,000,000g. That doesn't mean that there won't be other vendors that can make swords just shy of the top dude/dudette and charge a lower price. It's called an economy for a reason.

    The problem is this: too many crafters, not enough buyers. And NPC purchase values of crafted items is a complete joke. "You want to pay me 100g for this +13 Sword with non-optimal enchants? Are you on crack?"

    There are so many better ways to do enchanting/masterworking than the lazy way out (ie, RNG). Instead of 5 silver ingots alone to do a master work, add a component or two (or three) that puts an effect on the item. For example, if you want to add Strength to a Helm, you need 5 Silver ingots, 1 Bear Skin, 1 Strand of Kelp. That opens the market for collections of other otherwise useless items, gets rid of the RNG, and actually expands the economy. And I came up with that answer off the top of my head.

    Crafting Slot Machine (ie, RNG) is the laziest way of handling the perceived problem. And it's unfun for the bulk of crafters that use Enchanting/Masterwork.
     
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  17. Adam Crow

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    You should ask them for their opinion on the matter. ;)
     
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  18. Adam Crow

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    If the top dog sets their price just above material cost (10-20%) they would make a killing with volume of sales. And there would be no gap to fill, so nobody else could undercut that unless they want to lose gold. Nobody would be able to charge hardly anything for equipment anymore because everything would be so easy to make.
    Well with that idea you're just moving the grind from the crafting process into the gathering process. Do you think gathering needs more grind? I would prefer we lesson the grind in both areas. And it doesn't solve the monopoly issue that you are blowing off like it won't be a problem. I'm with you though on adding components like that, but I would prefer if they just gave the crafter a better chance at certain options, not a guarantee. That would create a much bigger gold sink.

    I like @Fenrus MacRath idea too. Not a big fan of having a 24 hour timer like that. But a cool idea for sure.
     
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  19. Rowell

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    The gold sink you're talking about (with RNG system) is a lot full of rusty cars no one wants to buy; not even the NPC's. It's completely unsustainable.
    Look at the economies of any other MMO out there that use skill based system, where crafters build their items, not using random numbers. Their economies are vibrant and not monopolistic as you describe.
     
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  20. Adam Crow

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    I'm talking about this game. Not others. These general statements really don't bring anything to the discussion.
     
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