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New durability costs and economy impact

Discussion in 'Release 69 QA Feedback' started by Elrond, Aug 22, 2019.

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  1. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    I like the way current enchants got reworked but... the new durability costs to apply them needs to be reconsidered ..theyre just too high ..

    I did the math a bit hope my numbers are correct

    Heres what we have

    1h WEAPONS

    Durability costs with The old system

    1h non exceptional weapons have 100 durability

    Applying 2 enchants ( a minor and a major ) costs 30 durability
    Applying 2 masterworks ( skill mw ) cost 30 durabilty ( 15 each)

    Total durability cost for a basic 2/2 nonexc. weapon is 60 durability ..that leaves us with a somewhat good weapon with 40 durability left . Sellable.

    Durability costs with The New system

    1h non exceptional weapons have 100 durability

    Applying 2 enchants ( a minor and a major ) costs 48 durability ( 28 major /20 minor)
    Applying 2 masterworks ( skill mw ) cost 30 durability

    Total durability cost for a basic 2/2 nonexc. weapon is 78 durability ..that leaves us with a 22 durability weapon .

    The durability change result - 40 vs 22 .

    1h nonexceptional are doomed.

    2h WEAPONS

    Durability costs with The old system

    2h non exceptional weapon has 100 durability

    Applying 2 enchants ( a minor and a major ) costs 30 durability
    Applying 2 masterworks ( skill mw ) cost 30 durabilty ( 15 each)

    Total durability cost for a basic 2/2 nonexc. 2h weapon is 60 durability ..that leaves us with a somewhat good weapon with 40 durability left . Sellable.

    Durability costs with The New system

    2h non exceptional weapons has 150 durability

    Applying 2 enchants ( a minor and a major ) costs 95 durability ( 55 major /40 minor)
    Applying 2 masterworks ( skill mw ) cost 30 durability

    Total durability cost for a basic 2/2 nonexc. 2h weapon is 125 durability ..that leaves us with a 25 durability weapon .

    The durability change result - 40 ( old system ) vs 25 ( new system).

    2h nonexceptionals are doomed.

    What is the economy impact. First of all ... i myself burn through most silver ingots when attempting third or fourth enchant .... with not enough durability left i wont bother with it anymore ....that will result in less consumption of silver gold ingots for many crafters who do the same ... The standard for nonexceptional weapon will be 2/1 instead of 2/2 . If i masterwork/enchant 1000 pieces of gear in a month with just 2/1 instead of 2/2 thats 5000 less ingots consumed.

    We have 5 enchants and 5 masterworks available as crafters ... i know thats impossible to get but 4/4 or 4/3 isnt if you doom nonexceptionals to just 2/1 or 2/2 mw/ench .... as crafters the losess will be really big..only exceptionals will be craftable .

    2h Exceptional weapon

    Durability with the new system 200

    applying 3 enchants on a sword ( 2 major 1 minor ) = 150 durability
    applying 2 mw on a sword ( skill mw) = 30 durability

    What are we left with ? A 20 durability 2h sword ???

    So what are we to do with a 20 durability sword ...how are we suppose to make 4/4 or 5/5 when we barely have enough durability for a 3/2 ?

    These durability costs severely restrict our abilities to craft nice things .

    I hope its not too late to reverse these changes ....allow the new enchants but with the durability cost of the old system .
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  2. SteelCore

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    I really dont see a problem with the new major enchants. They are technically the same as the former minor and major enchants and cost (for 1h) only 28 durability with one enchant instead of 30 durability with 2 enchants. Thats a great improvement.

    Old system: Non exceptional 1h with 2 weapon masterworks and a minor and major enchant 100-15-15-10-20 = 40 durability left
    New system: Non exceptional 1h with 2 weapon masterworks and a major enchant 100-15-15-28 = 42 durability left

    So you become almost the same values (maybe .2 less) with more durability left, where is the problem ?
     
  3. Elrond

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    Ask yourself this why do we have to pay these huge durability costs when applying an enchant ? Why do we have to lose durability when we fail an enchant ? What would happen if items lose only materials (ingots) when we fail an enchant ? What would it be like if all enchants would cost just 5 durability each to apply ?

    All these costs 55 durability for an enchant feel more like a punishment then something amazing . It greatly restricts the number of effects we should be able to apply ..and all because of what ? for the economy ...so we end up as crafters with lower durability items to sell people ..so gear doesnt last too long...of course the side effect to this is ... anything amazing youll manage to craft will have very low durability and youll be forced ( by the current system) to sell it for way much less then it should if it had more durability.

    The crafting system has 5 masterworks and 5 enchants - thats something all crafters ( i know i do) aim for .... many people think its impossible but its not i ocasionally managed to get 5 masterworks or 5 enchants on an item ... do the math and let me know where will you fit 5 enchants that cost 250 durability and 5 masterworks that cost 60 durability on a 260 durability item and what will be left of that item afterwards ?

    They should find another way to make the economy for crafted goods work and not punish crafters with these huge durability costs .

    That pretty much sums up my problem with the new durability costs .
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  4. that_shawn_guy

    that_shawn_guy Bug Hunter

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    my take, reduce the durability loss while crafting and increase the loss during use. we need 3/3 to be common, and 6/6 to be extremely rare (but possible). at the same time, we need items with a durability less than 20 to be seen as useless.

    as it is now, durability has no "real" meaning outside crafting. I'd like to see a market where a 3/3 with at 70 durability that perfectly matches someone's play style be worth well more than a 4/4 at 20.
     
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  5. SteelCore

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    I see, so ist more a general complain about the crafting mechanism.

    I think Portalarium introduce a great change with the next release. 1h weapons can get the same stats as before but with one less enchanting attempt plus they can have +7 more stats.
    2h weapons become the ability to get almost the same stats amount as dual wield 1h weapons, something 2h weapon user always complained about.
    I like the changes, thanks @Bzus
     
  6. Elrond

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    Nope its all about durability as the title thread enthails ...the word ''durability'' is mentioned 11 times in my last post ... if that looks like a general complaint to you ...guess i didnt mentioned durability enough times.

    Whats not to like ....30 durability gear invasion . See what i did ? Mentioned durability again ..thats 16 times so far ...cant be more specific then that .
     
  7. SteelCore

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    Maybe you have a different definition of durability than lets say Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durability



    Old System 1h: ~10 int cost 30 max durability
    New Sytem 1h: ~10 int cost 28 max durability
    Old System 2h: ~10 int cost 30 max durability
    New System 2h: ~20 int cost 55 max durability

    lets do some maths…
    Old System 1h: 100-30= 70 max durability left
    New System 1h: 100-28= 72 max durability left, looks like the durability winner
    Old System 2h: 100-30= 70 max durability left
    New System 2h: 150-55= 95 max durability left, seems we have another winner with the new system... strange right ?
     
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  8. Pawz

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    It's now possible to have higher stats with lower durability or the same stats with a little higher durability. Seems fine to me.
     
  9. Gia2

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    Nice improvements, need a fine tweak here
     
  10. Elrond

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    Do the math and let me know where will you fit 5 enchants that cost 250 durability and 5 masterworks that cost 60 durability on a 260 durability item and what will be left of that item afterwards ?

    When planning changes for crafting i would hope those who design it think about allowing a minor 0.001 chance of someone making a 5/5 or a 5/4 that can be seen as awsome and not something that has 0-30 durability . The new durability costs make that chance 0 . I understand youre happy with doing 1 enchant instead of 2 to get same stats as before ... thats not what crafting is about for me . Whats next 100 str enchants that cost 100 durability and we can all live happily ever after doing 1/1 weapons.
     
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  11. OzzyOsbourne

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    durability loss reduced by the skill of the crafter should be implemented
     
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  12. Lord Andernut

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    What I don't understand is requests to remove randomness or to have, as you said, 5 durability loss on enchants. At that point everyone gets their best weapon, and the weapons last forever, and there's not much need for crafters.

    Now if all you want to do is make your own sword, then sure, it's nice to make it cheap. But if crafters make their desired product with the best stats on your first shot, then all the other resources that would have gone into crafting the sword end up floating in the market and there's no longer a resource sink.

    Crafting is TEDIOUS yes, I don't have a clue why everything takes so freaking long. Sit and wait mechanic doesn't make sense to me.

    But balancing resource sinks and resource drains seems somewhat important.

    If it currently takes 20 sword attempts to make 1 good sword, and you instead make it so it takes 1 sword attempt to make 1 good sword then you now have a glut of swords or you now have a glut of resources. Perhaps a solution to that is more resources consumed to make a sword but that will upset people too most likely. Maybe the ability to use 10x the resources to get a slightly better result? Resources must be consumed!
     
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  13. SteelCore

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    But the same can happen with the old system. 150 durability +MW durability + 4 additional masterworks + 5 enchants could result in 180-60-100= 20 durability left, but thats just playing with numbers.
    With the new system and playing with numbers as well, you can still craft 5/5 stuff if you chose the enchants wisely. MW durability+thrust+double slash+crit damage+str and +str +dex +int +health +weapon durability results in 260-15-15-10-10-40-40-40-40=50 durability less. I for myself would consider that sword as crap because of the low durability, but it has more than the 30 durability you demanded.
     
  14. Elrond

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    So to demonstrate your theory for the old system you picked all 5 major enchants and for the new system you picked 4 minor enchants and weap durab ...cause major ones wont fit ....sneaky ..also you ignored the most important part of that qoute ''allowing a minor 0.001 chance of someone making a 5/5 or a 5/4 that can be seen as awsome'' ...sorry but theres nothing awsome about the example you posted a 2/2 sword is better then that ( with thrust coup and 30 str ).
     
  15. SteelCore

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    You are right,thats why i said i consider such swords as crap. And thats why i like the new system where you can have swords with 40 str, 13 dex, thrust and double slash and they still have durability left (260-15-15-10-55-40-40=85 durability left) that i would consider a really good sword, what would you need more to make it awesome… a 3.5 int minor enchant or 33 extra health ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  16. Elrond

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    The magic in our crafting system lies in people trying to get that next enchant and the next and the next and the next ... if you force a system that says you can only have 2 or 3 enchants ( because theres no more room ) that magic is gone . We will end up with something boring and very very wasteful ... the new system its all about getting that durability masterwork ...if you dont get it all youll have is a 25 durability sword or something ''incomplete'' or undesirable .

    What i dont understand from you is why are you so happy about paying 55 durability for a 20 str enchant and why are you against paying less durability for 20 strength ?
     
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  17. SteelCore

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    Edit: Again wrong browser with the wrong account :D

    Well they keep it in line with MW/enchants of other items. Small enchants for gloves, boots, helms that have lower general durability, larger enchants with doubled costs for weapons, chests and legs and now more larger for 2h weapons to get closer to dual wield bonuses. And from the economy perspective nothing will really change. For now i sell non excpetional 1h and 2h swords with thrust and 18.5 str or thrust and 15 str and 6.5 dex with 75 durability for 5k. Believe it or not this non-awesome swords are selling good. And with the new system the 2h swords will have thrust and 40 str or thrust and 28 str and 13 dex with even 90 durability. So in the end everybody will be happy, at least me and my clients.
     
  18. kaeshiva

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    Someone mentioned it above, what if the durability cost of application scaled down with your enchanting/mw level?
    So at grandmaster it costs 30 dura, at lvl 120 it costs 25, at 140 it costs 20, etc.
    Would be a nice perk for levelling things high, which currently is extremely costly for minimal benefit.
     
  19. Chiasma

    Chiasma Bug Hunter

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    Two 1H hammers get double material bonus and having a total of 200 base durability. One 2H hammer get single material bonus and having 150 base durability. This still make 2H hammer getting fewer enchants than two 1H hammers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  20. Elrond

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    Would be nice if it happened ...would certainly allow crafters to mitigate these huge durability costs.
     
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