What if this was your business? or is it? .....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ragnarr Lodbrok, Oct 8, 2019.

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  1. Ragnarr Lodbrok

    Ragnarr Lodbrok Avatar

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    I don't bash SoTA in any way. (I have been playing since January 2017) If you invest in this game then YOUR making a unwise decision to bash it or acting like a negative nanny taking a ride on the drama llama. Any post or comment started out with, "I am done" and "I am about to leave" and "I cant handle this no more"... are turning potential players away from possibly helping fund this game. If your done then see your way out and give the rest of US players the respect we deserve to have a successful game. Why doesn't everyone view this as their own business? What if this was YOUR business and your future depended on your reputation as a player whom is putting many countless hours into Shroud of the Avatar, your business. Would you enjoy listening to other people and other "businesses" bash your company you are funding? Would you go out and put down your business? If any of you have a business you know what I mean. If none of you have a business then make this game YOUR business and work with the changes. We ALL know the dev's are not working at the speed of light. Everyone has a thought process WE WANT THIS DONE YESTERDAY! If something changes at your job, do you go and be a prick to your boss and fuss about the changes because you didn't like or agree with them? Guess what, the changes are STILL GOING to happen, I think people need to get a grip before its too late. Yeah I said it.. I'm a Viking I got thick skin and a thick skull. We all need to exercise some control and use our tongues wisely. This game is NOT solely all about YOU nor is it a Game YOU use to play. We all need to be acting like we are a TEAM and our goal is to move forward and accept the changes and take out our frustrations on decaying Zombies... not in the forums in public. Who cares if items in the store are becoming (heritage) untradable! (We know which ones care. The ones making money off the backs of SoTA) Does this inhibit your ability to be a Avatar? Most of the people playing this game ARE adults, or are they? is this WOW? Are we acting like a bunch of spoiled kids? Lets use some sense in the future. IF you like or even love this game, then start treating it like its your "business". Directing anger in public towards Chris Spears and other dev's IS NOT the answer. I hate to bust your bubbles. YOUR hurting this game. And it really is unacceptable to those who have sunk thousands of dollars to be apart of this amazing game. Even if you just spent 5 bucks. This is your "business" too!

    I don't know about most of you but I don't want my business to fail.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  2. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    As someone who is well known for complaining about this game all the time, I think there is an important difference between just lashing out in anger and trying to steer the game toward what you think will make it more successful through criticism. I don't complain about games I hate, or that I don't believe in. Apathy is the truest form of disdain. I complain about games that have potential they aren't reaching, because I want them to do better.
     
  3. Vladamir Begemot

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    Sometimes you have to let people rage.

    Yes, actually. The whole draw for me was the player driven economy. But I can get past it, as I have so many nut shots before.

    I would resent that if everyone didn't have the need to rage. You know I'm waaaaay in as well. Even when I sell a box of hats now and then, I am most certainly NOT making money. The non-grinding money makers left at launch, or shortly afterwards.

    But I am shouting loud. Isincerely felt that they are heading to a brick wall and someone needs to yell for them to pump the breaks. Actually, everyone on the bus who doesn't like the wall needs to yell at once. So sometimes it has to be public.

    But I'll lay off. The die has been cast. Now we see how it plays out.
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    We try to let people rage but often it feels like it is not even in their own interest. It makes newcomers wonder if anyone even watches the forums or question playing the game. As for the player driven economy, that feeds off new players and expanding a player base. I have something in the works that I believe will expand our player base significantly but currently the forums are full of rage over stuff they won't even understand. Be it no trade premium items (confusing because that is how it is in every game) or bow nerfs (which were actually just super minor nerfs to all melee and weapon charging) or whatever, lots of rage that would not only confuse new people but also make them not even try the game.

    As for speed of implementation, it is no secret we are a small team but I believe we move pretty darn fast. I think some miss how fast we work because we pretty much release constantly vs every 3 months to a year for major releases for other games. Again though, we could move even faster IF we had a larger base of players that allowed for a larger team and contractors! So help us get there by keeping the rage to a minimum.

    I've said it a million times before but saying it again. I absolutely appreciate our long time players and appreciate their passion even if it does sometimes turn into anger over things changing. Just work with us a bit so we don't scare the new kids too much!
     
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  5. Steevodeevo

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    It is disconcerting how no trade for premium / subscription items has become a major thing. I didn't (and am not) getting involved - beyond this comment - as I don't fully understand the issue, and don't really care whether I can or cannot trade them. I have (and would continue to do so) traded my rewards for gold, but I can adapt. If i am short of gold now I will have to work harder or buy COTOS direct from Port, and maybe sell them in game for Gold, which I think is the main point of the change?

    Maybe it is because I didn't play UO or perhaps as I am outwith SOTA economics culture? But being a more 'general' type of MMO Player, what Chris says strikes a chord with me. I have never (or at least I can't recall) ever been able to trade special rewards from an MMO in game for in game currency to my recollection and I have been somewhat puzzled by the outcry here. That said, if trading rewards for IGG or real world cash has become a key part of your game play, I can at least understand the upset, and if the decision was reversed, I would revert without hesitation to selling my subscription rewards once more.

    As it stands now, I will have to find a new source of gold income, and I believe that can only come from me playing more hours to gain more loot, getting smarter at crafting and trading my wares, or buying COTOs from Port.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  6. Aetrion

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    From what I've witnessed ingame there are a small number of enemies that seem to take hardly any damage at all from arrows after the archery changes, like some of the wolves in the new Ulfheim. Unfortunately I don't have a list of these arrow immune enemies, maybe someone can post any they find. Can you look into that? I feel like running into those might be what causes a lot of archers frustrations right now moreso than the numerical changes, which I think were legitimate. The focus bar should not be a second healthbar for characters that can dish out top end damage with their free attacks.

    As far as the tradeable stuff goes, I also agree that this is standard for all other MMORPGs, but I guess SOTA has attracted a certain audience that likes to speculate on digital goods and wants to have the ability to cash out of the game. I'm not entirely sure how to raise the profitability of digital sales without squashing the secondary market, but Vlad posted an idea I liked about at least being able to crunch unwanted reward items for small sums of COTOs.
     
  7. oplek

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    I think I'd be happy if they were progressing on important tasks like the UI/quest revamp, but instead are spending multiple months on creating dungeons. That's been a big issue - their prioritizations.

    "The UI/quest revamp is scheduled for episode 2"... To me, "they're going to work on that in episode 2" is code for "they're procrastinating" and it's not high priortity, because there's zero reason those things need to wait. They're already working on episode 2 things, like the player dungeons.
     
  8. Sulaene Moon

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    Perhaps better communication would have gone a long way to ensuring people aren't raging for things that surprise them. If you were to take the time to explain why, how, and when changes are taking place us players would be better informed. You could show examples of why changes are taking place and why they are needed. Rather then just sort of announce it as a possibility in a stream and two days later it becomes a reality when most of the players had no knowledge that a change was coming.

    I know that might take a few minutes out of your schedule, but I'm sure 99% of the players would be happy to see it posted and read about the reasons of any changes rather then not hear anything and often have to speculate. I also am sure 100% of players will be okay if you cut your stream short to post these changes for everyone to read.
     
  9. Gorthyn

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    Just because people criticise or even rage it doesn't mean their concerns and worries are unjustified. The reason the game population is where it is and the Dev team has shrunk is directly linked imho to so many concerns, worries and suggestions from so many players being ignored or shouted down over the years.

    Of course you can't please all of the people all of the time (especially gamers !) but there are persistent trends and themes of criticism for SOTA that have long been around but never get addressed it seems.

    This has been compounded recently by the policy of revealing changes via Chinese Whispers on Twitch rather than proper and detailed communication on the forum as it used to be. Part of the complaining and raging is filling the vacuum left on the forum from the Devs effectively stopping communicating here.

    Rage/ complaining might put people off playing but as it's alot of well founded unhappiness it should be treated as such and not shouted down by others.

    This forum can't just be a happy clappy everything is wonderful place that is not allowed to raise concerns and criticisms as that will soon finish off the game once and for all. The game needs to improve considerably to thrive not stay as is and die because criticism is deemed unacceptable by some.
     
  10. Sulaene Moon

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    While you might not like the customers feedback or you only like those that are positive, feedback is a necessity in any business. That means a business you run or one you buy from or sell to. While emails to Portalarium are an option, more and more people turn to social communities for solutions to their problems and provide feedback. It’s up to the business to read through and figure out the underlying issue as to why customers are unhappy. When complaints, questions, or confusion comes in, a business shouldn’t just see it as a one-off user error but should figure out what the root of the confusion or complaint is and if there’s any possible improvement the team could develop to make a better experience. Since they have access to this direct feedback they should see if any other players could be affected by the same issue.

    More then most games I’ve played, players here want to be deeply involved in the game’s decisions, directions, and successes. Involving and listening to them early and often is a great way to help them feel heard. The best thing that Port could do is find out what was the players reaction to the recent release, how many players were affected from a change, did any follow-on problems occur, and what happened to the key metrics following the recent release.

    So while you might not like any comments except positive ones, I can tell you that properly run businesses to care about their customers, both current and future, can learn a lot from “hearing” what people say.

    And please don't use words like "drama llama, negative nanny, blanket & binky", you could probably find better words to express your thoughts.
     
  11. HoustonDragon

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    Not directed at the original poster, but most all of the criticisms and communication issues have been around since the game was first started. It has been several years now, and we still see the same echoes and complaints about unpolished gameplay, broken/buggy systems, incomplete lore/writing, etc. The game was rushed out the door to cater to the RMT housing market for persistence, and has never been fully completed. Even the physical backer rewards JUST were finally mailed out to people who have been waiting several years, and even those remain incomplete for the Blade of the Avatar novel that has not/may not be published.

    I get that their staff is trying. I respect that they are making whatever decisions they need as a company. I am frankly disappointed as hell that back when they first laid off the majority of their staff, there wasn't a HUGE internal red flag about the state of the game. I'm extremely annoyed that after their physical office closed, there continues to be little to no actual marketing or advertising efforts towards attracting new players and revenue. To be blunt, the money's running out, and throwing it back onto the players is NOT a feasible business practice. There has been a RIDICULOUSLY huge amount of passion and nostalgia for this game. Back from when the Kickstarter happened through now, there remains a strong core of players who want to see the success of the game.

    I don't personally play anymore. But I certainly don't wish ill on Port or its staff, but I definitely DO question what the final gameplan happens to be. Continuing to milk the same group of folks over and over eventually runs dry, and I've seen a lot of folks who put a tremendous amount of time and money into the game walk away in recent years. The toxicity towards new players has never been fully addressed, and supposedly whatever funds that were meant for marketing were either misused or simply ineffective at this point. The way to resolve it, in my suggestion, is for all of their staff to sit down and be open in communicating what steps they intend to take towards either saving the game, or simply shutting it down in the near foreseeable future.

    It is a business. They don't always succeed, even with the best of intentions.
     
  12. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I think these are inaccurate at best. The people who were doing top end damage as air archers saw little change, and didn't leave over it. The ones (like myself) who left the game are casuals, who finally had an archery build that allowed us to do endgame content as an archer without being level 120ish and having 130-140 in most skills- levels most casuals will never see due to the exponential xp requirements. This game was sold as both a solo and a group game. But right now, endgame content is aimed at group players in the AL100s, or solo players in the AL120s. Sure, some builds can do it solo at lower levels. But the fact is, once you hit AL100, if you want to keep enjoying the game, you need to play in a group, respec to a build/play style that may not be what you enjoy playing, or be content with grinding a few of the lower end bosses and mobs.

    We weren't demanding to easy mode through the spider queen, we wanted to be able to take ten minutes to fight a unicorn and maybe win, instead of dying in under a minute. Or explore K'Rul alive instead of as a ghost looking for an ankh. I didn't "rage quit," I realized that the game was not going to offer the promised solo experience I wanted any time soon, and it wasn't worth my time anymore when other games do offer that experience.

    You can call them fixes and "small changes" all you want, but a bunch of people questioning why they were still playing suddenly realized, "wow, this game is fun when you can actually play it" only to have that ability removed a release later. (Because instead of good builds being public knowledge, they're kept secret in fear of the nerf bat. And given how that all shook out, the fear was justified.)

    As for the "second health bar," the build (at my level, at least) uses the Dex/Dodge blessings which leave you pretty much at 0 DR/DA, and Brittle Brawn knocks ~200 off your health. Air Shield makes up for that loss, and hardly functioned as a second health bar. If you ran out of focus, you died pretty friggin' quickly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  13. Forum Name

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    Apologies if my last post was too pointed; that is my bad and I am sorry. But devs, please be cautious in telling the players what they can't or won't understand. The customer's perception is the reality, not the dev's intent - being told we can't understand or aren't processing changes "correctly" may not come off great to your customers.
     
  14. A'chelata

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    This is a very important part that the Devs continue to skip over. I've been playing an archer since the beginning. For the FIRST TIME in playing this game, an archer actually was fun to play. Instead of nerfing fun why didn't you boost other characters to also be in the 'fun' zone?

    @Chris, you complain that you don't have the manpower and money to do the things you want to do to make the game better faster. YOU HAD the money and manpower, and bad decisions like killing archers is what brought you to the struggle you are at now. When will you ever learn that people don't like the punishing, non-empowering game style that you are continuing to push? When will you ever learn that the very frustrating parts of this game are the same type of reasons that people play games, to escape the similar frustrations they grind through in real life?

    Please explain to me what part of the design goals make it necessary for everyone to mindlessly grind and struggle and try to pretend that the general gameplay of sota is rewarding in any way? The most rewarding thing that I accomplished was figuring out and maximizing a template build over 6 years of exp grinding that actually allowed me to have fun in this game, and you killed it for no good reasons at all. If it was unbalanced, why not balance up instead of down? Why not make MORE people happy instead of some people mad? It's short-sighted decisions like that, that are why you no longer have the needed money and manpower.
     
  15. A'chelata

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    and yes, @Chris, it was not small changes and fixes, you made about 6-7 changes that took my dps down by greater than 50%, and ability to survive down by more than 50%.

    Archers don't get to maximize heavy armor, shields, off hand attacks, sneak attacks, tons of different weapon choices, our damage resist and damage avoidance are basically zero when using the normal skills designed to go with archery. Crossbows are worthlessly slow, we don't get 8 different magic trees to compliment our skills because no archer can reliably cast spells in leather or chain armor.

    Melee chars still crit for 1500 plus, they still get cc and stuns and all the advantages of being a tank. Please tell me chris, wtf are archers supposed to be for?

    Our weapons are 2-handed, so no other options there. DPS is ALL WE HAVE as a template.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  16. Violet Ronso

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    Something I would like to say to you specifically about the fixes you do to the game, that I usually mostly agree upon, but this time something got under my skin, is how for however long the mobs resistance was worked on in a way and you did balances and fixes around these "broken" stats. Now that you have fixed this, you did not go back on any balance passes you did before, and I think this rubbed many in the wrong way, myself included. Maybe fixing the broken part and then monitoring for a little bit the impact it had BEFORE balancing more things would have gone a long way in terms of how people viewed the situation. I understand why so many archers got really upset, they were victims or a nerf at the same time that everyone fell victim to a bug fix, so they got hit extra hard (even if deserved). I know I am not enjoying archer play anymore, but I was only playing it to actually see how broken it was and report some bugs I kept hearing were around but not reports to be found, but now I actually dont know what to play because of how hard the hit was, I feel like any of the weaker classes will be straight up wet noodles.

    So in the future, if you have a bug fix to do impacting combat, maybe hold out on balances until data on the bug fix comes in.
     
  17. A'chelata

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    Thank you for that, until now, I wasn't quite sure what the Dev's definition of 'Avatar' was, suddenly it all makes sense.
     
  18. Ragnarr Lodbrok

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    Your exactly correct It is the business responsibility to view and read it's reviews and give some feedback and ask questions related to that business. But if my business had THIS amount of poor comments and raging in the public's eye, my phone would never ring for a new customer wanting some services. I don't read the forums daily. But when I do read them it's all negative, just HOW MUCH negative post does it take for some highly intelligent people to "understand" there is a problem? 10, 20 or 200 how about 2000 or more? I want this game to gain new players, don't you? WE ALL know there is issues. Do you really think the amount of workers at Port has time to answer everyone's gripe? So in order for people to continue to play they need feedback or a pat on the bottom? I think I would rather have the Port Team spending their energy and time on fixes and content. They have given us a release every month the same day since I have been playing, and still are doing so after they moved and lowered the amount of devs and workers. That's pretty damn amazing to me. Why can't we give them some credit and some slack? Must we always be bashing the game, Do you really think they are intentionally causing mistakes and bugs to produce problems? That's insane if people think it, not saying you are. But damn let's not kill the mule, let's lead him to the water hole. A little support for these men and women are much needed. But every time I read threads it IS negative. I may not be searching for a positive one barried deep somewheres, if that's what it takes.

    And as far as wording phrases, which may be offensive. I find it offensive on ALL the negativity here in these forums.
     
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  19. A'chelata

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    Not quite as amazing as the fact that they continued to make a monthly release while lowering the amount of fans from 50000 backers to barely 1000 players. They turned $20mil into 4500 cotos for no-trade pot dungeon teleports( got all 10 yet?) Preeeeetty amazing indeed.

    What makes you think the mule is thirsty? Or would even follow you if it was?

    *see above mention of 50,000 backers and $20mil, I think we did our part.

    One man's 'offensive' is another man's quality control. It's all a matter of perspective. If the game was fun, people would be here, and the good would outweigh the bad on the forums. It isn't, they aren't, and here we are.
     
  20. Mishikal

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    I care. I care because it inhibits my ability to play the game with my wife. You see, we have a central property that we store all of our deco on (think of it as our deco bank). From there, we can pull out items to decorate any of our other properties. We often work in collaboration. My wife might say, for example, please bring me X of item A and Y of item B, etc. With heritage items, we can no longer do that. It's utterly destroyed the ability to do cooperative decoration. And the new "palette" system doesn't resolve that. Your attempt to attack people thinking people are only thinking about RMT is way off the mark.
     
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