The power creep is getting silly.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetrion, Oct 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    2,199
    Likes Received:
    2,993
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I do that a lot, as do some of the people I play with :) ever beat a dragon with fists? I have lol. but its not worth the effort... takes way ... way too long. you can kill almost anything if you know the fights. just like trolls, jump and move behind = always win no matter what you wear. Dragons you can spin and when in air use cover... etc.. for each type of encounter.
     
    Boris Mondragon likes this.
  2. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    2,199
    Likes Received:
    2,993
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I think @Mac2 would probably know more about fighting every mob then anyone I know and strategies. I think he has soloed everything in game... myself there are limits. I cant kill high magic resistance beings like obsidian golems, or some of the Aether creatures. I also have never tried to figure out how to solo the queen spider. Keep in mind as a mage. I am sure as a melee class I could probably do all content as I dont think there is anything that is immune 100% to physical. In fact one of the best builds I had in the game for killing everything at one point was my dagger build which I could clear things so fast per resistance changes. But I dont run that build anymore, but never know I may go back to it.... the downside to the melee builds is range. you have to constantly be on your feet moving around.
     
    Mac2 and Boris Mondragon like this.
  3. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

    Messages:
    4,542
    Likes Received:
    8,100
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Yea i dont think about that stuff cuz i use light armor. I been wearing the same light armor chest pieces for over 2 years and have only recently got new weapons because of the change to masterworks, before that i had been using the same daggers and crossbow since unicorns were introduced
     
    Boris Mondragon likes this.
  4. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

    Messages:
    4,542
    Likes Received:
    8,100
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I wouldnt mind it that much if i hadnt seen what it did in WoW, i didnt have a good experience becaus ei came in at wrath of the lich king, and could not play with any of my friends until i ground down the dungeons for days to get to level 80 and hang out in the same city they and everyone else hung out in.

    Shroud has alot mroe freedom so theres not gonna be places locked out by your level to keep you from playign with your friends so that probly wont happen, but i still dont liek the idea of the rest of the world becoming useless as you get stronger, which has already happened to about half the map or more.

    If they introduced a hard-mode for every scene that might fix that but, overall thats why i dont like power gradually and then exponentially increasing. The mroe powerful people and mosnters get, the more grindy the game will get

    Sorry to quote ya so much i didnt wanna make a new post so fast. Without having really high strength (which is relative given that 200 strength used ot be "really high") and the gauntlets of lead i couldnt punch a dragon to death because of its armor and regen. Soem of the newest boss monsters regen like 300 health /second and that was to make it harder for powerful people to solo them. So while you can technically fight some of these thigns forever, theres some ways you literally just cannot win without good gear.

    I had a friend talk about how they werent doing the damage everyoen else did but they had really high skills and stats (alot higher than arkah does) but they were doin miniscule damage. they had a sword with like 2 stats on it and it was soemthign like +5 strength and + somethign anotehr stat and thats it. Thier armor was great, for defence. Full meteoric plate.

    But i tried to fight a dragon in their gear, couldnt do it. Punchign it with gauntlets of lead did way mreo damage than that sword/armor combo did. They would have had to nuke its health regen and then take like half an hour to whittle it down
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    Astirian and Boris Mondragon like this.
  5. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    5,108
    Trophy Points:
    153
    No, no and no. Every single game has gear with stats, most games have tiers to their gear, from common to legendary. Most games have lvl caps to armor, so you cant wear x until lvl y. Most games have a way to gem/socket/imbue gear to increase its power.

    You use crown store gear to save one the hassle of durability, it's like playing WoW and using lvl 1 gear to have a cheaper repair cost. It's fine by me that you do it that way, but do not start saying that because we use crafted/MWd/enchanted gear that we put you at a disadvantage, because you are putting yourself at a disadvantage on your own, to save one repair or replacement costs and hassle. The power creep is normal, people always want a new tier of strong, because they also want a new tier of monsters. If they just keep adding stronger monsters without allowing for stronger gear, at some point people will be upset. Dont blame the game/devs or who/what ever because you decided long ago that you were not going to use an entire system from the game.

    The game will powercreep, and the best way to do it in this game is through gear, be it materials, masterworks enchants, and whatever new mechanic they will add, gear = power, and this is one thing that makes 100% sense considering how the game works. You need a way to allow a player to go from powerful mage to powerful healer, to rogue, to warrior, to tank, to tamer, without forcing the player to respec or create a new character, so OBVIOUSLY this cant come from skills, it just cant, it HAS to come from gear and buffs, because those are the only things that are easy to swap mid-run. We are already limited by specs, devotionals and 3 day blessings that can't be changed during a dungeon run, so you need the change to come from those other things.

    I'm not saying that your opinion should not matter, but the fact that you are ignoring a crucial part of the combat system means you are obviously at a disadvantage against the rest, and the game cant base its adjustments around you.

    And for whomever is talking about his friend not beating a dragon due to his crappy sword, I mean it's the same thing, go play WoW or any other popular gear, only wearing lvl 8 armor and weapons, and try to clear a dungeon, you will not enjoy the experience.

    In every game gear has an essential role for combat, the only difference is here you can acquire the best gear ever even at level 1, so people tend to forget the sense of progression required, and think "I could wear this but it is too pricey, the game is flawed".
     
    Dhanas likes this.
  6. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    You've been here longer than that.
     
  7. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    15,678
    Likes Received:
    24,293
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    So character development shouldn't matter? When SotA gets to that point then I'll be done with it. BTW, I didn't say that we shouldn't have gear. I said that it shouldn't be all about gear, so please stop trying to twist my words.
     
    Jaesun likes this.
  8. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    5,108
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I've reread my post twice now, and honestly don't see where I said you said so, so honestly I don't understand why you are asking me this...

    Yet this is something I haven't said.

    I don't want to have an argument with you, so anyways let's leave it at that...

    All I am saying is that considering how all skills CAN be equal, like literally all of them, the one thing that you can't have all of is gear, you are limited to a certain amount of enchants and masterworks, 1 attunement/resistance gem per (most) pieces, 1 armor type and 1 weapon type at a time, so skills and passives will allow you to build your character, but to actually specialise and buff him up past that, gear, masterworks and enchantments will be what will help you achieve that.

    You cant remove either of these 2 systems from the game, and anyone who does ask that will get a post from me laughing, but you also cant compare/complain if you ignore one of those systems and say that they are too strong, because you are not using them at all.
     
  9. Astirian

    Astirian Avatar

    Messages:
    614
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Hey I've tried this but the Price Distribution, Min/Max Price and Sales Volume windows are always blank. shroudoftheavatar.net right?
     
  10. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,725
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I think there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to the balance between how much power comes from gear and how much power comes from your skills.

    My ideal system would be:

    One third from your XP.
    One third from artifacts you get from completing dungeons that are bound to you and have their own slots.
    One third from crafted items that can be freely traded.

    That way you cover everything. You have the XP system where you get better just for playing a lot. You have content progression where you get stuff by actually completing parts of the game. You also keep the crafting scene relevant, but the hit you take from not having top end gear is much smaller.
     
  11. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

    Messages:
    1,792
    Likes Received:
    3,729
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The difference between creating gear at 100 / 120 / 140 is kind of small. Ask @Elrond and some of the other powerful crafters in this game and those values really aren't necessary.

    They should get more of a bonus for the amount of time and effort it takes to move a crafting skill to the 140+ range. Unfortunately that's not really how it works. 100-120 works really well. The 140+ should charge way more and they do, because they are targeting a different demographic. What do i mean, you ask? Well any player can grab a piece of equipment with the correct buffs made by a player with 80-100-120 skill and see dramatically better results then junk equipment. But the difference between the 140+ is basically just gravy. And the players that play a lot and are very high level are willing to pay hundreds of thousands more gold and sometimes millions more gold for that equipment... for a very small boost in power. To be blunt about it, the market for high end stuff sucks... it's expensive and in my experience its really unnecessary. You can do extremely well with 100-120 grade gear.

    But that seems to be the main argument being used... it's always comparing those high end pieces and how they are supposedly necessary... but they really aren't. You can have every skill just at 80-100 and be completely self sustainable in this game. In my opinion those high end pieces need a boost to go along with the price and effort it takes to make them. And the players comparing those pieces to the main market of the game are simply just wrong.

    You're trying to remove the best part about crafting in this game. The fact i can make 30 exceptional items and not get the exact properties i want on that piece is what makes those "perfect" pieces so valuable. It removes the influx of uber gear in a way because its just so difficult to make it. Those pieces are however completely unnecessary. You can do extremely well with "above average" pieces that cost a fraction of the cost.

    But to have those amazing pieces be so hard to make and purchase is what sets this crafting system above any other I've used and played with in other games. There is always something to shoot for, even if it is improbable most of the time. That's what i really enjoy about the gear and the crafting system in this game. The amount of happiness and pride you get when you actually make a "perfect" piece is hard to explain.
     
    Mac2, Pifester, Aldo and 1 other person like this.
  12. Uncle Ben

    Uncle Ben Avatar

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    376
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Actually back in the old UO days your character skill is a lot more important than the gear.
    Sure you would want to use a Vanquish weapon when you got the chance, however it is not a requirement.

    You will kill things slower and may get owned during pvp with random gears. However your character functions perfectly fine when pve in general as long as your skills are high.
    Who knows, maybe SOTA is drifting away from the old UO concept ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, not much we can do. Personally I prefer character development over heavily relying on gears.

    Crafting in this game is fine IMO. Even with good gear your character still need to be highly trained in order to do well.

    The artifact upgrade is the power creeping part, which the devs probably should take another look at.
     
    Aetrion likes this.
  13. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,403
    Likes Received:
    23,554
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Uhm.

    Why are you all discussing details of details?

    It would be easier to discuss the OP POV if one just thought of a percentage of which should be which.

    Skills (skill trees) vs gear (slot items) vs buffs (food, devotionals, potions)

    For instance if you think that it should be kinda equal but skills>gear and gear>buffs then maybe you want
    Skills 50%, gear 30%, buffs 20%

    While if skills and gear should be equal and buffs of lower interest then maybe
    Skills 45%, gear 45%, buffs 10%

    By making the discussion more abstract like that, then you all wouldn’t get as bogged down in unnecessary details, while getting more down to how you think the balance needs to swing.

    Just a thought.
     
  14. Cirsee

    Cirsee Avatar

    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    1,013
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Female
    I can agree with the OP to a point, skill should be more important, but crafting should also - theoretically, if my skill sucks.. then I can't utilize my gear as well?
    So maybe a skill 60 %, crafted 35%, buffs 5%.
    I do agree artifacts have become a must item and therefore kind of violates the "we don't want everyone to have to use/pick the same skill/pet/item" mentality, but I do like making crafted gear best in game; with the loot being mods/improvements to crafted items or augments directly. Maybe we limit a dropped artifact to a single special slot. You could also go the way of other games and create passive/active special skills to increase the skill worth - say after you GM x skills and reach GM in the two specs, you can unlock the passive skills that offer perks? These would be akin to AAs, Champ points, Ability points.. many games use these.
     
  15. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,725
    Trophy Points:
    93
    The main thing is that artifacts competing with crafted gear for slots seems to be causing a power spiral, so that should be addressed. Adventurers go out and they find artifacts, that's the main reward for killing stuff that you can't get any other way, artifacts compete with crafted gear, so crafters demand better gear, that makes the artifacts worthless so adventurers ask for better artifacts.

    The solution is obviously that artifacts should have their own slots that don't compete with crafted gear.

    The artifact fusion system is also just blatantly aimed at only the most hardcore players in the game. Tons of people run around with a tier 1 as their only artifact because they can't afford more than that, let alone afford to replace it every so often, and we're going to get artifacts that are 64 and 256 times more expensive than that? That's the kind of crap that gets this game accused of only catering to whales.
     
  16. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    3,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Docking at your port soon

    Yes that is the site or any other site that shows an average price for mats and crafted items.

    i.e. Crafter Joe made a meteoric long sword and added two enchants and two masterworks. In my concept of fairness he spent 3k in mats (wild a$$ guess at mats cost), he cane up short on desired effects and sells it to the NPC blacksmith. The fair price for him/her to obtain should be approx 2400 (80 pct of cost to make). We are not even taking into account the most valuable asset he used which is time to obtain & refine mats then craft the item.

    Bottom line with this fairness to crafter approach:

    1. Higher demand for mats which helps gatherers especially new players that need a starting income.

    2. Encourage new crafters to craft as they can get a large portion of their mats investment back.

    3. Get rid of all the extra junk out there which I assume has an impact on performance.

    I gave up on crafting back in the day items would fail and blow up on your first Enchant or Masterwork and left both in the low 70s. Made more gathering and selling to crafters. Also tool blacksmith to 128 and make my own armor weapons. I will pay my favorite crafter a sizeable tip in gold/silver ingots for their efforts.

    R/Boris/El Pirata
     
    Paladin Michael and Astirian like this.
  17. King Robert

    King Robert Avatar

    Messages:
    522
    Likes Received:
    1,501
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I have never lost gear to wearing out; not once. I am not higher level than most (130) but I have never had trouble keeping gear. I replace items when I find better ones or when crafting changes make my precious prior items now worthless. But wearing out for me is not an issue. Then again, my wife is oddly close to her brother, all my kids are blond (I am not) and a pig killed me. So take this with a grain of salt and pray for Bessie.
     
  18. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    15,678
    Likes Received:
    24,293
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    The main problem that I see is that they allowed artifacts to be enchanted/masterworked, so now they don't compete with crafted gear, they just win.
     
    Gravidy likes this.
  19. Magnus Zarwaddim

    Magnus Zarwaddim Avatar

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Trophy Points:
    93
    To be fair, gear was ALWAYS meant to be a way for crafters to have a real impact on the game world. It was always meant for crafted gear to be the best gear. There are no "drops" save for crafting ingredients AND artifacts. When it became clear that artifacts would be better than crafted gear I could swear a revolt was brewing specifically because it was always meant that crafted gear would (saying it again) be the best gear. This changed when they allowed crafters the ability to augment artifacts and make them better, again staying with crafted gear being the best.

    So while I can see your point about skills vs. gear, it seems this was always meant to be the case. I personally like the system because now I am not just chasing skills, I am chasing gear. And while it can be expensive, there are ways to get it - including devoting time to becoming a great crafter yourself.

    Don't let this disparage you. I agree the developers should keep an eye on it and not let it get totally out of whack. But the only impact I would imagine is PvP where someone can just come in, earn gold (or buy it) and buy high-end gear. However, they would STILL need to skill up past GM to be competitive.

    If they were looking for a way to minimize the impact, I can only think of one solution: gate the gear to Adventure Level or Skill Level. Examples: Cannot use that 16+/whatever gear until AL 80/90/100/whatever; cannot use +10/20 Fire/Any other skill attunement level until GM in "x" skill(s). Things like this can make gearing even more useful if you want to prevent every0ne from having +20 (does that exist?) and using it without being proficient in doing so.
     
  20. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,725
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I have no problem with crafters being important to the game and the source of the best gear. What annoys me is when tradable items (including artifacts) are practically the only real source of power while the gains from skills get pretty negligable past GM at a huge cost, and there isn't anything you can gain by actually completing content. We don't have to be like WoW where crafting is totally irrelevant, but we shouldn't have it to where power is traded freely and always goes to whoever grinds the most either. There is no sense of individual achievement at your own pace in this game, because all the nicest stuff only goes to the top 1%. You can't get that stuff at your own pace, because if your pace is slow it breaks down faster than you can acquire it, and the prices adjust to how much money other players have to spend, so you always have to compete with them.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.