Not everyone wants their dungeon to be a farmland

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vladamir Begemot, Nov 4, 2019.

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  1. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I see dungeons as an opportunity to tell a story, and have zero interest in making grindy farm fests.

    For that story to be told with combat, the DM needs to have the GM powers that are going to be given out on a limited basis.

    I would gladly trade away loot drops on enemies to be able to spawn those enemies where/as I wish, including in hallways, wherever. It's my dungeon, let me break it if I choose.

    Developers went with the totems because they think we will endlessly farm our dungeons, which is true.

    But I believe a lot of us would rather run people through a carefully crafted experience rather than same ol' same ol' loot farming.

    If it means I can't have enemies drop loot I'll happily trade that away in order to take my guild through an experience where I spawn in those skeletal archers just as the evil troll finishes his dialog.

    GM powers mean no loot and thus no possible exploits.

    GM powers mean the possibility of a tailored experience, dramatic, timed encounters, ambushes, and dare I say it, epic fun.

    Alternately to zero loot, I'll happily load up the loot table from my own pocket, so again, no exploits as I'm paying for all the drops.
     
  2. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    I've always found this part funny about why mobs in Player Made Dungeons couldn't spawn where ever and you couldn't decorate spawn rooms, because mobs have the leash mechanic where if you are in an impossible to reach location, they take no damage and regen, and when I say impossible to reach, I mean just up that ladder on the palissade, you know the one where the archer was hitting me from 2 seconds ago, and now I can't?

    Why not simply make sure this mechanic works in dungeons, and set the exp and loot rates equal to Dev made dungeons, and allow us to spawn mobs where we want. Heck, charge us the Essences with an X amount for 1 specific spawn of 1 specific mob?
     
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  3. Vladamir Begemot

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    @Violette Dyonisys because some crafty player will figure out a way to exploit them by getting the mobs stuck or something. One way or another someone would figure out how.

    That's why I want to make it perfectly clear to them, I'll sacrifice the loot in exchange for the power to craft unique experiences.
     
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  4. Dinsoo

    Dinsoo Avatar

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    I recently read a book. It was called, 'So you want to be a GM'. It was really not all that interesting. Just filled with hubris and self loathing. Good idea though.
     
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  5. Sulaene Moon

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    What are dungeons even good for? The ones I have been in are either a place to put more deco or fight monsters with less loot then out in a normal zone.

    I’ve collected a few pieces, not sure why people would buy these unless you need more room for your stuff. For the longest time people kept saying that quest NPCs are coming but that’s been months ago and some posts go back more then a year about it.
     
  6. Vladamir Begemot

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    We had a cool RP guild adventure last weekend, which was greatly enhanced by the dungeon we used. A good designer can do a lot with them.

    NPCs will greatly enhance these sessions, right now we have alts or guest players, which is also great. But NPCs will let a single person run an story a lot more easily.

    The fighting was fun and added as well, but with no power for the GMs to summon enemies at their discretion, it's still just a facade with a bunch of generic rooms in between plot points.

    And yes I do believe NPC's are coming judging by last Friday's livestream.

    I too was pretty skeptical until this last weekend, but one good dungeon changed my mind.
     
  7. Gia2

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    It's already possible mate, have seen many spawning rooms linked with a T or X conjunction. That let you pull from 3 rooms and kill in a decoed 4th room etc etc

    sad part is i never been able to pull anyone inside except some rplayers or friends in there.
    Money/hr is too important for these casual activity apparently :(
    To conclude , even as a huge fan and pixelcracker myself of these sandboxy stuff i really think there are bigger thingies to adress before.
     
  8. Vladamir Begemot

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    That's not really the same thing at all. I'd like to do something like "NPC gives its dramatic evil speech, then I turn it into a troll while spawning archers in on the catwalks above. As the players get into the fray, at moments of my choosing I spawn in waves of fighters from the hallways."

    I have zero interest in making a dungeon for people to grind in.
     
  9. Joe Zhudarak

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    How about being able to set respaw timer from 3minutes to infinite . Problem solved, you can have your RP dungeon and i my grindfest paradise
     
  10. Vladamir Begemot

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    Not in the slightest. Putting down totems and adjusting their respawn rate is just changing the speed of canned encounters. Canned encounters are of no interest to me as they aren't interactive beyond the combat.

    I know some people are only in this game for combat, and that's great (they probably aren't in dungeons though, either). But I like interactivity.

    GM powers allow the creator to interact with his guests rather than make what amounts to an on rails shooter, or circular grind fest.

    I appreciate you guys trying to figure out ways to cram the current square peg into the round hole of interactivity, but it's not going to work. The request has been made, we'll see if it happens.
     
  11. Gia2

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    Vlad i think you misreaded my post, was referring to Violette about the chances of bugging stuff. I mean it's already possible to glitch it so i'm all for more tools for immersion like npcs, traps, fake doors and walls and whatever fantasy can produce
     
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  12. Vladamir Begemot

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    Yep, I misread, sorry.
     
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  13. Vladamir Begemot

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    Yes, that's why I'm suggesting they open it up for dungeons specifically. It's our own little domain, let us use it!
     
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  14. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I don't know what this means (although I can venture a guess), and I certainly don't know where it was talked about.

    I appreciate that Chris is using Twitter and Twitch to provide information about all of this - and I think the Vladamir has some great points - but for those of us that are not able to play/watch/scour Twitter it would be nice if they did a weekly "recap" of what's been done, what's coming, and what's planned for the future.

    I for one miss the future quarterly plans. :(
     
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  15. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I would respectfully disagree. I don't doubt it would appear to be favoritism if, for example, a SotA Con attendee got GM powers. But you have to ask yourself whether or not they are just truly active in the community. Also, if someone thought there'd be preferential treatment for the higher-end backers that have invested a lot in the game they'd have to ask whether or not the person is active. I would think Chris would vet the person pretty well. Attending the Con and/or being a high-end backer would certainly get him to look at someone, but if the person has not engaged socially, not "created" content for other players, and/or does not display the ability to be a GM I can't see Chris shooting himself in the foot by giving this power to someone who runs amok.

    Also, the community would be all over this person and they'd get shut out of being a GM quick.

    Certainly there is room for exploits, and the community can self-police. But Chris and any other team members will likely be monitoring closely when a person is given GM powers.

    But to your point (sorry for the long-winded prelude), I imagine if someone is active, demonstrates some ability to manage and conduct an event, and raises their voice that they'd be given a shot at being a GM at least once. :)

    Just my two-cents.
     
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  16. Vladamir Begemot

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    Until then, The Avatar Express.
     
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  17. CarlNZ

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    Have to be no xp as well as no loot.
    Be better if dungeons just had a point system that let you place mobs you buy up to the point limit of the dungeon as you wish on playthrough without specifically granting gm powers. Like a dm running a dnd game.
     
  18. Belladonna Rose

    Belladonna Rose Bug Hunter

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    This has been my balk all along concerning dungeons. To me its just a gold sink....or drain. I have built out two dungeons. And with limitations of my funds and lack of completion from the Devs they are just sitting gathering dust. We asked and asked since the beginning of the whole dungeon process for things to be put in place and/or finished and yet we sit here now and nothing yet. The connection pieces were badly needed and they finally put them in so we can make them....but at a crazy cost. 1k gold per blueprint for something as simple as a connection piece. And we were told before they werent going to put them in as they were going to have the connections as "snap together" when built. Now they dropped that ball and we have the expensive blueprints for connections.
    I have asked repeatedly for spawner totems for the Ravensmoor room and other rooms that are right now useless....nothing has happened. I understand the coding totem placement is a big deal but WOW..how many lich and kobold rooms do we need. All those Compendium rooms and they are the same spawns. Those rooms should be able to put anything in them. We have yet to see human mob totems, spiders, skeletons and many others. By the time they get all this complete my dungeon will be so dust covered will take an army of House elves to clean them up.
    I orginally started my first dungeon out as fishing spots with a few rooms for encounters. And a few side rooms for deco purposes to go with a sort of theme....but now i am thinking of a whole new layout. Just wish they would finish up and tie up loose ends to make it great.
    I agree with Vlad though.....its OUR dungeons we should be able to do what we want. I want to make mine usable other than farming as well.
     
  19. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    On this note, Id like to talk about the test lich single spawners I have. Like you mentioned being able to spawn enemies where you are. The single spawners work as you like. when in adventure mode I can drop the 3 lich spawners in any room I am in realtime which tells me the tech is able to work as you like, we could technically have these things for either pre placement or in backpack to summon on will dropping them as you walk around.

    Or in rooms and some halls you place place these around like objects in deco mode which change to mobs on change to adventure.

    If you want to see them they are in Silverdale Market up at my keep where my mirror dungeon is. once in the entrance take the first right door and follow the crypt area there are 3 of these.

    They don't drop loot and give very little xp. Which is fine by me but I think it would be cooler if they dropped common loot as regular mobs. I also love the idea of the GM tools for creating custom DM events. Like the OP mentioned well in GM mode make it so you cant get xp or loot to help with control. I have no desire for self gain short of the smile I will get from being an invisible DM helping make a live event more entertaining. look forward to when these things start to come out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  20. Vladamir Begemot

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    Now that's more like it! Maybe this whole thread was pointless, as I just didn't know that trajectory had started already.

    Ok, I'll tease all our brains with one more want now. Simple logic for those spawners of yours, so the GM can set up complex events without having to pull it off in the heat of the moment. I'm playing Oxygen Not Included now, and the activation of things through timers and sensors really allows players to create complex buildings, which in action are essentially complex events.

    Maybe LUA can help, I don't know, but as an example, the GM might set up a series of commands she could do normally, but have them all triggered by when an NPC says it's final dialog piece. That causes the NPC to despawn, and a troll to spawn in the same location (fake transformation). At the same time, it spawns 3 skeletons down a hall, and sets their target location to near the troll. At the same time, archers on the battlements. Then a timed spawn of waves of her particular choosing.

    This makes the base encounter, and the GM is there, invisible in the middle, adding enemies at strategic moments to keep things fresh. Or playing as the troll.
     
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