Just what is "immersion"?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Nov 7, 2019.

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  1. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    But what do they MEAN?? :)

    Except in the immersion vs fun it's a completely incorrect definition the 'anti-immersion' crowd is working off of. :p Ok setting aside my nit-picking of definitions.. I'm totally with you on all counts here. There is absolutely no reason all of these elements can't co-exist in a well designed and implemented game.
     
  2. redfish

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    It was always a matter of making game decisions that include the two, IMO.

    So its a big part of why I thought horses and pack animals and such should have been in earlier, rather than later, for instance. There's always an "immersive" solution to a "fun" deficit.

    And there are always going to be some people unhappy on both sides, but most players are in the big middle I think, where they believe the more the devs can reconcile "immersion" and "fun" to work together, the better, and that the devs should work for those solutions rather than other solutions that may seem easier to implement but break the relationship between "immersion" and "fun."

    Yes, it is "worth it."
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  3. Cordelayne

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  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    This was a "Please Come Back" email. The "immersive" elements that changed were things like "if you fall off a curb as a low level player you die" and "it's do dark out at night that you must play with the light spell in your face or nightvision or you literally can't see anything". And local banks, and control points, etc.

    All things that have very little to do with actual immersion, unless anything that is unrealistic pulls you out of the game and makes you freak out.

    Again, ironically, a bunch of things that for most of us, were actually the opposite of immersive. If you ever watch a new player twist their ankle and die (months ago) you'll remember, it wasn't immersive. It pulled us out. Opposite of immersive.

    And also mostly done.
     
  5. redfish

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    Yea, but all the reason why it people should stop claiming things like that were designed as "immersive" just because they go around with a chip on their shoulder and claim every element in the game that isn't fun, isn't fun because someone wanted it to be "immersive."

    Not all totally a good decision IMO in breaking down regional gameplay, and it won't attract many new players to come back to the game because some of these things really weren't as bad as complainers made them out to be. Some small part of the decisions I think which tuned out old players, without attracting enough new players to make up for them.

    (The thing about the control points I don't care about, simply because ATM control points didn't seem to have a point to them, although they "should").

    Darkness is something that could be fun, and there are plenty of games that prove this, but one of those things that just needed work and where there doesn't have to be an immersion vs. fun solution IMO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  6. redfish

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    Come on, @Cordelayne , you love me
     
  7. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    I love everyone, hence the ;) :D
     
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  8. Vladamir Begemot

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    Good or bad, those are what they are talking about.
     
  9. redfish

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    Yea, I understand what they're talking about, and part of what I was trying to address with my first post where I talked about why people want immersion in games and why its not a competition between immersion vs. fun.

    Ultimately, I don't think many of the changes will get back the players they're trying to get back because the "immersion vs. fun" problem was not as important as they think it is, but has turned away players. A big part of the problem w/ the game is that just teleporting somewhere and farming mobs is not good gameplay. Its really not. Blaming an "immersion vs. fun" problem for why people aren't playing is a red herring, and just dividing the player base.
     
  10. FrostII

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    Hey @redfish
    When you say (above) "I understand what they're talking about" - who is the "they" in "they're" ?
     
  11. redfish

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    The devs in the mailer? I was responding to Vladamir who was explaining changes the devs have made because of the type of immersion vs. fun concerns.
     
  12. Aetrion

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    Blackboxing a game doesn't make it more immersive. Immersion above all else means being able to act in a way that makes sense in character, so things like having to farm for XP because consistently using skills doesn't matter if you don't have the XP to raise them are way more immersion breaking than having your character be unaware of how their own abilities work.
     
  13. Girlsname

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    Anyone going to say something about not being able to speak while dead?

    Oh right- we’re all dead.

    :p
     
  14. FrostII

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    @Vladamir Begemot @redfish
    Hey Vlad.... what are the changes the dev's have made that you refer to ?
     
  15. Scoffer

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    A good example of Immersion vs fun would be the npc schedules.

    On the one hand you feel as though people have lives, they go to bed at night and so the shop isn't open 24 hours a day. It gives the game a sense of "life goes on without you" and that you are part of a living world.
    On the other hand its bloody annoying having to stand in a shop for 20 minutes waiting for the guy to turn up so you can sell all the random junk you collected.
     
  16. golruul

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    I distinctly remember a bunch of people explicitly using the phrase "reduces/kills immersion" in their opposing response to a bunch of quality-of-life changes over time:
    • Teleport scrolls. Many people said that you should be forced to travel overland and through scenes to get where you're going... because it kills immersion if you don't.
    • Skipping sieges + checkpoints + random encounters. People said you should be forced to endure the load times and run through the siege/gate/encounter... because it kills immersion if you don't do this.
    • Remote bank device / weight limits in town. Want to craft? Well then ONLY take your weight limit from your lot to the crafting tables, because it kills immersion if you're carrying a 20k pound trunk and crafting. Want to craft something else that you didn't think of? Well, of course, go all the way back to your lot, note down the exact the amount of items you need from the trunks and take them, then head all the way back to the crafting tables. Very immersive!
    These three are just off the top of my head, but I would say a good portion of the quality of life changes had people complaining about it because it "kills immersion".

    More "immersion"-killing changes, please, devs.
     
  17. Cora Cuz'avich

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    To be fair, that trend started because the devs often used "because immersion" to describe mechanics people were complaining about that hey lacked time to or inclination to address. Which I soon came to realize meant "because RG wants this and is not open to discussing it further." (For good or bad.)

    My own personal example was when I noticed that while you could interact with player vendors through the windows in the new (at the time) crafted storefront homes, you couldn't do this through the ornate crown shop versions. I bug reported it, only to discover that it was not intended to work that way, which resulted in the crafted storefronts losing that feature. (And again, I'm really sorry, everyone.) The community objected, but were told that you can't click on vendors through windows because it wasn't immersive. (Nevermind that shopkeepers permanently stationed outside their stores is just as "unimmersive.") So, after 2-3 releases of everyone having fun putting their vendors inside their well-decorated stores, they all got moved back outside. Because immersion.
     
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  18. Barugon

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    Yes! All this does is waste my precious gaming time. It doesn't add fun or immersion for me.
     
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  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    @Chris, please note the above and un-immersion it back to fun again.
     
  20. oplek

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    I'm in the "immersion is when you're interested and engrossed in a game, tuning out and excessively neglecting the real life world and responsibilities around you" camp.

    It also means that what, exactly, can be immersion-breaking, varies a lot from person to person. Because the global banking system dumbed down the game, making it less interesting and nuanced, eliminating potential gameplay possibilities, it lessened my interest in it, and therefore, my immersion.

    Edit: Whereas clicking-vendors-through-windows wasn't immersion-breaking for me. I was more likely to be interested in what I was doing.
     
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