Manually multi boxing 5 characters in Shroud of the Avatar

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dread Pirate, Jan 3, 2020.

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  1. Dread Pirate

    Dread Pirate Avatar

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    Thanks kaeshiva excellent post you break it down perfectly
     
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  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I'm watching this 5-box video and if its all being done manually (which it looks like it is, I'm watching the cursor go) its damn impressive reflexes. I struggle to even get my damn alt to stay on follow long enough for me to park her somewhere safe and have her do nothing at all while I kill stuff. If the "other clients" were automatically tabbing and targetting things on their own then we'd be looking at some sort of automation. But if each window is clicked in turn, tab pressed, skill button pressed, then next then next..? Each client is in the foreground when the skill is executed, its just only in the foreground just long enough to press the skill and move on. Unless I'm missing something here. I am guessing this took a lot of practice :x
     
  3. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Yeah, same discussion came up when people started macro-ing water-gathering from a well. If you add a boring tedious system with a long execution time / cooldown, you're basically asking people to automate it. The better practice would be to address systems that are so slow/awful that players feel the NEED to bot them, rather than trying to police botters.

    I originally bought a second account (back when there was a box price) precisely because refining the stuff I gathered was taking over 30 hours per week (that's like, almost a full time job) so I made a character, bought her some prosperity tools, and parked her in town on my second monitor while my main character went out and did fun stuff. Every couple minutes I'd tab over and load her up again, then carry on. If I got super involved on my main screen in a tough fight, then sometimes she'd sit there doing nothing for 5 minutes until I got 'round to it. But at least I didn't have to use all my gaming time watching a progress bar. Instead I watch progress bar in my peripheral vision :x
     
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  4. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    its not really clicked, he just move mouse around the screen which probably auto bring each client on foreground, then press teh actual button skill (look at the bars, they all setup the same). So just mouse over the viewport, press lets say 3 or 4 fast 3-4 time while moving. I can go faster than that ;p no magic here
     
  5. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Right, but its not automated. He's physically moving each window into the foreground, executing a skill, and moving to the next. If you don't cursor over to the appropriate client, there's no way to make that character do anything, they wont even autoattack if they don't have a hard target they'll just stand there. That's what its looking like to me. If there was some sort of third party shenanigans operating the other windows, then I'd have a big problem with it. But if someone wants to manually control their own firing squad I don't see it as an exploit, I see it as Extreme Multitasking lol
     
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  6. Merrik

    Merrik Bug Hunter

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    I read the posts and I see a lot of justification, not really discussing, but defending of positions.. this is non-productive... then @kaeshiva made a beautiful post... I just want to say I don't believe any of you are understanding it is the SCALE in which it is being done that is alarming from a developers view... which is why it has triggered an internal discussion... no one has been out right banned.. from what @Chris said it is being discussed

    So... calm down... have a beer.... and lets see what happens :D
     
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  7. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    The program hes using to multibox is actually bringing each window to foreground automatically while mouse over it.
    But yeah i agree its a hard line to walk on. An exploit is kinda getting an advantage over other users. Here the advantage, is using a super computer to be able to run 5 client at once (which is legit in term of money/power, but it isnt in the eyes of the others who can only run one client at once, they would do it too but they cant without spending an astronomical sums of money) and with a program that ease the whole thing (which is not legit, a third party application is a third party application.) Doing it with 5 client windowed placed next to each other, he wouldnt be able to achieve that, or at least it would be harder to click each individual icon, which would lead to slower pace of fighting. So yeah, i kinda consider that as cheating imo
     
  8. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I agree 100%, if a third party tool is being used there's a line being crossed. I've put more than one client on the same screen before by manually resizing them but I found it too hard to read the chat but not real clear on the focusing behavior. If that's being software-assisted, then its a no-no as per my understanding of the rules.

    I'm with ya, 5 at once is pretty intense. I imagine the scale is going to ultimately be limited by hardware specs and reaction time. My concern is that if we set a precedent and change something to stop multiboxing on this scale, its going to have an impact on smaller scale multiboxing, or even just single-client-tabbing-out while your character is tied up in a tedium task over which you CANT contribute any input (ie refining).
     
  9. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    Guys, while it is impressive, it still isn't allowed. As soon as we say this is ok, then some guy is going to line up 16 clients all running on this AMD Thread Ripper and Titan video card, all with bow and arrow on autoattack. The real debate should be about what the actual limits should be because even if I block this you could just use the tool he's using to autoselect the window the mouse is over and then just swing your mouse around and pound 1 to do aimed shot on a dozen clients at once. Again though, that at least fits the rule of 1 key press, one rune execution and would be more work.

    Seriously, we're discussing this internally but more on specifics and whether or not we need to update the language of the document or just make the code change and add server side checking as well. There is no situation where executing runes when the window is not in the foreground should be allowed. Same with crafting. The discussion is how to fix, not whether or not we should fix. If people want to run multiboxes so they can have one character they tab to for a heal or a rez, that won't be blocked. We just can't let a player swing his mouse over some windows and hit a key to start an endless round of attacks while he controls his main toon.

    Auto attack is a convenience feature we added to prevent exhaustion, it was never meant to be used as an AFK or in another window continuous damage stream without input. It is the only skill that I'm aware of that continuously executes runes except for possibly some of the artifact musical instruments. Again, I'm not trying to tell people they can't multibox, just that the characters in the background can't be auto doing something. There is a legal number characters than can concurrently be executing a rune and that number is ONE.
     
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  10. John Markus

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    I think it's standard Windows functionality. I think it has been there since Windows XP (it's under Ease-of-use in control panel, or activated via PowerToys (depending on windows versions) )
    Disallowing this kind of tool may make physically disabled people unable to play.
     
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  11. Dread Pirate

    Dread Pirate Avatar

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    Your exactly correct.

    @devilcult please stop lying. It's all manual and you see me make mistakes constantly through the video.

    I can provide RL video of me doing it if that's what it will take.
     
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  12. Dread Pirate

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    This is ridiculous. When I went from 4 to 5 clients it started to become diminishing returns. 6 may be possible but it feels like I'm already at the limit.

    The concept of lining up auto attack on 16 is utterly ridiculous mate, I'm sorry to say but it is.

    I've never done this, it never occurs in the video and I dont know how its even possible.

    Again this isn't true. kaeshiva explained exactly what is happening. I can provide RL video if you like demonstrating it.
     
  13. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Your doing it wrong then, imagine how fast you could go! ;p
    Manual or not... You can see the potential risk of showing that kind of video publically. People names tools that now everyone could have the idea to try out, also ideas on how they could use it and all, it also create a debate around if its a cheat or not. Its the kind of thing people usually try to avoid showing around publically. Still not sure why you did but yeah... I could be wrong on the way you do it, but thats how id do it if i were to do this kind of stuff, which lead to easy cheating and should be prevented anyway.

    and the way chris is gonna fix it isnt going to prevent you from doing it the way you do. Like he said, just windows in foreground will play a rune, if thats the way you doing it, well it will still work. Its just gonna prevent those that have the idea to press a button and make all screen have the action at same time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  14. John Markus

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    IMHO, you should be careful using terminology "runes" since that is the game's internal working terminology. Not many players know what the "runes" are and where and how they are used.
     
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  15. Dread Pirate

    Dread Pirate Avatar

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    Players repeatedly accused me of botting and I was constantly griefed by these people who would spawn kill me and I wanted to put an end to it. What should I have done? Should I have just accepted this toxic behavior as a part of the game?
     
  16. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Well gotta admit seeing a guy play 5 character next to each other like this all timed, day after day, you would probably say the same thing ;p
     
  17. CICI

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    Many crafters multi box =) make ingots lol some what afk it
    Note: I don't craft
     
  18. Dread Pirate

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    So you just assume the worst and that makes it ok to slander and grief someone? Who cares what the truth is lets just shoot first, say 'botter' repeatedly and not even bother to ask any questions.
     
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  19. Elrond

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    This is an issue easily solved without changing core ingame mechanics like disabling autoattack . Simply improve creatures AI ... Wow is a great example for this ... you can go camp a dragon with 3 alts in sota and kill it..try camp a boss in wow with multiple acc...they will die pretty fast . Multiboxing will happen no matter what changes you make ...people will either use more accounts on same pc or more pc to have more acc active ...

    I look at ut and feel like it was created exactly for multibox purpose no random respawn , you just sit in one place and nuke everything. Just add some aoe skills to those creatures ...make mages cast fire rings , make them cast meteor shower ..and suddenly 5 accounts become a pile of dust if only one guy manages them . Add a miniboss after each wave that randomly puts a dot on character that does massive dmg if it does not move continously for 5 sec to autodispell .

    Personally i would add this mechanic on every boss ingame, dragon , troll , or designate one creature to cast it in every wave battle ... like a superpower ... AOE DOT with autocast every 60 sec as long as the boss is alive - you got the dot gotta keep moving for 5 sec to dispell it if not you take 500 dmg (100 dmg/sec).... you still havnt moved next 5 sec...you take 1000 dmg (200 dmg/sec)... this would pretty much solve multibox issues in my view ...i think it would be hard for any player to keep moving 5 acc continously for 5 sec without cheating .

    Features i would add

    Dragons ( based on colour and elemental attack type)-Fire/ice rain Rain - All Player in a huge area get a dot that autodispells after 5 sec . Autocast every 60 sec . No dmg done to players if they keep moving for 5 sec . If they dont move buff doesnt dispell after 5 sec and continues with double dmg ( first 5 sec 100 dmg/sec..next 5 sec 200 dmg/ sec so on) . If player stops moving while the buff is active they take dmg.

    Trolls ( Torc) - Ground smash - same dots effects .

    Spider Queen - Snare - Same dot effects ( you also have to overcome the ensnare )

    and so on
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  20. Sulaene Moon

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    Guess they'll lose out too.
     
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