Combat "balance pass"

Look we are talking about a video game you are only as strong as how the developers allow you to be. If for example the person doing code makes an error in the math and you get significantly more damage then what was intended that does not mean you are a strong or even a talented player, it means there was a mistake that needs to be fixed.

Of course it is painful on players when these mistakes happen with coding but they need to be addressed. I understand that some players have fun trying to figure out how to game the system, I use to be one of those. After playing Rift, I stopped being that way because there was an archer build were my entire rotation was tied to one key. I would use 3 skills and kill everything in PvP and 2 rotates on most things PvE. A lot of people played this build and the devs never fixed it so you either only saw that build or players just stopped playing.

If I can solo kill the hardest creature in 5 to 10 mins now and after the change it takes me 20 to 30 mins I don't consider that a nerf .

 

How about we let Chris fix what he wants to fix without all the ultimatums (if he nerfs blah blah blah, I'll quit!), we don't complain about it, and we move on. Worst case the game is more challenging which isn't a bad thing although a lot of people in the thread seem to think it is.

This won't be the last time something gets out of whack and needs fixed and I tire at the "I'll take my ball and go home" comments which doesn't help anything. Chris shouldn't have to worry about Person A quitting if he fixes something that he feels needs fixed.

 

It is a video game, and I think you should lay off the Catnip Kool aid before it stains your lips. How ridiculous a statement that is, we are only as powerful as they LET us be? We are as powerful as we can become within the confines of the game they created and the rules should not be changed because we have surpassed their expectations of what we could achieve. If you really believe that tired old excuse about the glitch being a misplaced decimal point or coding mistake, I think you might be naive. If you said, poorly coded or inadequately tested, I could agree, but that is on the devs to maintain the continuity which they created. In the case of the air shield archer build, all the separate parts were working fine and when combined and used in a specific way, allowed the archer to actually be a powerful class capable of competing with Death mages and the wholly beloved Fire mages wearing heavy armor. That wasn't a coding error, it was an evolution of game play based on the rules and presets presented to us.
BUT it unbalanced PVP for a few minutes, so it was nerfed and the unfortunate result, the utter destruction of the archer class once again. We are only as powerful as they let us be? They only have a profitable game as long as we play it.

 

Yup. and like i said earlier, we already have the skill trees intact and a way to verify that a player is flagged for PvP. Add a condition on the skills that need balancing for PvP (e.g. if_pvp_flag) and modify the skill to behave differently and leave the PvE folks out of the hysteria.

Fenris

 

I think a pass of buffs of the lesser represented skills would be useful. If everything else gets buffed up to be on par with say fire, archery gets an enchanted arrow shot that lays down a similar aoe, bludgeon gets a ground slam that does a quake aoe similar to fire's, etc., would help. Have them do different damage types and then balance by adjusting creature's resistances to get them all in the same ball park. At least then we'd see some more diversity in character types.
Probably pay to slash the amount of skills in game as well to make it easier to balance and easier to rebuild into new trees.

 

I think thats a simplification Sara. Its not that at all, its more a call to action for Chris to be mindful of his decisions and not be so quick to a kneejerk reaction. To sit and actually think about what the result of this fix is going to be, test it on QA for a while and maybe ask himself if this is better than what I have now, if the answer is not a resounding YES, do nothing. let it sort itself out. Fire mage has been outrageously over powered for 1/2 of a decade and the game is still here. Maybe some of the things to consider instead of constant skill nerfs would be to roll back the horrible decision to 2x experience gains and bring back the death penalty. These things would stop the player base from outstripping your mobs and make them less likely to try to solo a boss if 6 hours worth of XP go up in smoke on a miscue. NO one wants to hear that though. '

 

It would be really nice if every tree or specialization had equal viability instead of the majority of players using the same handful of combinations. The current balance is way out of whack with far too many 'specializations' giving far too little for their exclusivity, and others being almost mandatory for particular playstyles.

I'm all for balance, but please please please PLEASE lets do thorough testing. I will happily volunteer time to assist with this and run damage metrics, test time to clear different types of content with different trees, etc. I'm sure there are many who would also be willing to do this. If there are going to be super-artifacts that boost specific builds, then make sure these exist for alternatives.

 

I don't disagree fundamentally with what you're saying, but in a game that is struggling for population, punishment mechanics and negative progress are not going to help keep people around. Even with no death penalty, unless you use one of a handful of lucrative builds, soloing bosses is largely a waste of time. The loot isn't worth the time effort unless you can steamroll it and are willing to do so dozens of times to maybe get something but probably not. At least you're only wasting the time it takes you to do it. Having to essentially pay a number of hours in "grind tax" to even attempt something challenging is going to do little to encourage continual playing of the game. For a long time, people wouldn't even bother because it wasn't worth even attempting. New players would want to go see some content or try something out and higher level players weren't interested, because it simply cost them so much if someone messed up and the payout wasn't anywhere near worth it. Bringing back the death penalty would slow people down, sure, but it would also cause a lot of people to simply stop bothering.

The 2x experience wasn't really an issue before scenes like UT/Tartarus showed up making it easy to get previously unprecedented amount of experience in a short amount of time. Bumping someone who was getting 100k experience an hour harvesting/killing in a T5 scene to 200k experience an hour was probably a good thing. But then the power-grinding scenes came along and pushed things to a level of absurdity.

 

I feel like we are kind of agreeing here on the end result, whether its a death penalty of a major skill nerf, its not good to draw players in. You are correct about the loot being trash, so who cares if I can solo the aether dragon. Its not done to grind loot, I do it because it gets my blood pumping and is fun. The reason I play a video game, not because I feel like everything is calm and balanced.

 

Well there are counters to this in negative healing modifiers. Most other games also have attacks that can attack a players focus so in the game of attrition they can't heal forever. Though for this to work I think the game would have to be fixed to make all healing/focus potions share their cool down. Or maybe just stop potions from being available on the non combat bar. So if you want potions it cost you deck slots.


Regards
Spung

 

Don't forget that double XP affects both adventure and producer XP. Even with double, earning crafting XP is still painfully slow.

 

You clearly have played a long time as well. So I know you are aware that the original design was getting a skill to 80 was the sweet spot of the power curve and over 100 was suppose to be significantly diminishing returns to a point the power curve was flat. That is the balance I expected because to me it seemed like a way to allow casual or new players to compete with people who constantly grind and was a compromise to those who wanted a hard cap. I didn't want a game where an equally geared 120 level guy could completely out perform a level 80-100 level person. The reason why many mmo's fail to expand a player base has a lot more to do with people feeling they could never catch up, so what do those games do they offer level boosts or make it stupid easy for people to level. A game stops becoming fun when there is only a few specs that are viable.

 

Correct. Gone would be the days of taking risks, venturing out to help a new player, or joining a party of non-experienced players to help out.

 

I hope when I return in ~5 months I have been nerfed hard.

I hope that my level 104 is insufficient to fight mobs in a T5 without at least 2 competent people assisting me. I hope that to take down a dragon I will need a balanced party of 5+ that have learned the mechanics and still wipe 10% of the time. I hope that I lose my first 100 PvP fights because my character is not designed according to the current meta and I don't have the counter-moves in my head wired to my muscle memory.

I hope for this because I don't want to feel like I've earned or become entitled to victory. I want to be overcome with a rush of adrenaline as I struggle to keep pace with a game that evolves to challenge me.

 

I hear what you are saying, but lets be real for a minute here, VERY few things in this game are how they pitched it to us in 2013. There were LOTS of things that were supposed to be and are not. I dont fault you for clinging to that vision, but my argument is based in the reality of what we received and that is probably why we disagree. While I want a casual player to have a great experience also, I dont want that at the cost of MY fun. To go further in this point, none of those nerfs I am upset about were done to balance the game for the casual player, they were based on complaints from hardcore PVP players. I do not fault them either, because that is the game THEY want to play. To wrap it up, the reason most MMOs fail, is because they dont give the players the experience they are after and they go elsewhere or they become solely fixated on their cash store offerings and less and less on game play, I would hope you agree, there is a case here for both arguments.

 

Nonsense, Gone would be they days of blindly thrashing into a region where you are completely unaware of what is waiting for you. It would do more to foster that desire of group play and more folks would be willing cooperate than just blaze out and give it a try, because there is no consequence. We cant have it both ways, we cant have double xp and free deaths and characters who wont overpower the available regions. It doesn't make sense. If the options are that everyone is mediocre (or a heavy armor fire mage) or there is a risk attached to your actions, I will take the risk and the possibility for greatness, thats just me though.

 

you would not rather new challenges arise to test your newly evolved skills? You would prefer continue to fight the same old mobs you once fought , but this time you arent as good? If that is the case, the next time you want to buy a new car, let me sell you your current car (at a higher monthly payment).


Wait, Are you being sarcastic? I am sorry, I just re-read this post and cant tell.

 

....and here I was thinking that after a long absence, I would return to a game where the age of the heavy armor fire mage would be sensibly gone.

Silly me - i should have known better.