The happy medium

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elnoth, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. Elnoth

    Elnoth Avatar

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    This thread is in response to watching @Chris stream https://www.twitch.tv/videos/543759832 in looking for "the happy medium" between adventurers and crafters.

    The currenty state of balance for BiS gear is to have artifacts drop. These can then be improved by combining them (with 1 skill only, smelting) to improve them to a better state, then applying enchants and masterworks to the item. The two problems with this system are:

    • No use for the top level crafter skills in the blacksmithing, tailoring, or carpentry trees, as you need smelting skill to combine artifacts. This seems a bit silly when you think to make the best bandit gear for example you don't need to utilise Tailoring skill at all, but a smelter? Materworks skills are still used but the top skill is bypassed.
    • It hurts the ingame economy, as only gold ore and silver ore are used. There is no need to gather materials like ore or wood, or animal hides, including tier 2 materials like tin, nickel, beetle carapices or suet for crafting.
    To address each of these issues, I believe a system where you salvage an artifact to obtain a token of some sort, and a recipe to recraft the artifact, is a better system. This way you would need to seek a tailer to craft the better bandit piece, and it would be fractionally better than a base artifact as you would get the material bonuses added depending on how many leather and/or straps etc are used.

    I see no problem with allowing enchants and masterworks onto the base artifacts as is currently allowed as the base artifacts will always be slightly weaker than a crafted equivalent.

    The happy medium will be realised since to obtain the best piece of gear you would need to obtain a drop, utilise a crafter, ultilise an enchanter, and utilise a masterworker. People that like to gather are also kept in the loop as harvested materials including tier 2 crafting materials will still be used in the best ingame gear, keeping the economy in a better balance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  2. majoria70

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    Well I remember a day when crafting feedback and ideas meant an improvement to the crafting system like mini games. An economy conversation in this game has always stopped or hindered progress. If the game is fun players will come. The chances of getting your stuff sold will better work in us being able to have a global item search. Making things over complex has always been an issue to many things in this game.

    And remember solo players do not want to utilize a crafter etc. They will play alone. Forcing need for other players will backfire imo. Cool items to me in loot is a big plus for this game and very missing. People always ask me about it. Let the cool items have charges and a timer to use again. Then they disappear or break for good. At least give us some fun loot.

    I would personally enjoy finding a piece of armor I don't have to craft from scratch. Then I can just masterwork and enchant it. Crafting armor takes an atrocious amount of resources to do. I don't care if it affects the economy if that could even be the case. I'm here to have fun and so much of this game is not that. So here's to fun.

    So I vote to let Chris add the armor so we can masterwork and enchant it. Stats can be a little under a fully player crafted piece and it can say enchanted and masterworked by whomever did that. Then we can get on with the show. Like getting a raid system in and scenes we want to visit over and over and so much more. Also like cooking skills enhancements to be able to enhance recipes to be useful. This is long over-due.

    Sorry to come on your thread but the subject was a disturbing one and if we weren't watching every little thing for years which I have been maybe we would have a very different game. I may delete this later or not.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  3. Elnoth

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    Hi majoria70, thanks for the thoughts.

    I think in essence we agree with each other, particularly with the comments about some people just wanting to play solo and not wanting to seek crafters, and just wanting to use gear straight from a drop. That is why I suggested keeping the current system for artifacts where the drop itself can be enchanted and masterworked.

    The basic point I am trying to make regarding the balance between the different players in the game - the adventurers who just want to kill stuff for cool loot, the gatherers who want to gather stuff, the refiners that refine stuff, the crafters that craft stuff, the enchanters and masterworkers that put the final touches onto an item, is that for there to be a happy medium then they all must be involved. This is where the BiS (Best in Slot) method for salvaging the artifact for a unique essence and recipe, to allow the gatherers, the refiners, the crafters, the enchanters, the masterworkers, and finally the adventurers to all get involved in making the BiS item is critical. Even if it is only 5% more powerful than the base artifact then the top teir players will chase that, dragging all these other elements of the game into it!
     
  4. Lazlo

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    I wouldn't have any problem with the kind of system that you're talking about, but really the only big issue with the current system is that a lot of dropped stuff is just way way way better than anything that can be crafted from scratch. I don't think most people would mind the fact that some of the best items for particular slots are drops, as long as there were also other options that were at least in the same ball park. Right now that's just not the case for quite a few slots.
     
  5. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Here's how I see this issue.

    The bottom line to having the BiS (best in slot) is that somehow you must first obtain a rare drop, one way or another.

    I contend that these "drops" SHOULD be available to most anyone/everyone , IE drops on most anything, and here's my rational .

    This way new, lower and midrange peeps at least have a shot at obtaining BiS NECESSARY items and becoming the best that they can be -once they put the time into their skills - since arties are absolutely necessary for BiS.

    The way it is now, once a new player learns about BiS and what he/she needs, and what level mobs must be killed to maybe get one (rng anyone) - or - what it costs (saw a single ring @ 500k today) to purchase one in our "market" - they will probably give up.

    BiS should NOT depend on a high-level drop, but on a trip to the highest level crafter that they can afford.

    Having BiS ONLY available to - either high-end fighters (often in groups) or the few wealthy enough to pay the ridiculous market prices - is NOT conducive to attracting the new players we so desperately need.

    **EDIT: ** Oh, and btw.... This perspective is coming from an old player who currently carries 4 BiS Legendary + items at any given time, hell I already have them . But I think about how disheartening it must be for new and average players when they realize the power that these arties add and feel hopeless in terms of the difficulty/costs of obtaining them..........
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  6. Cirsee

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    I think I liked the idea of having the dropped armor wearable as is and then able to be salvaged for crafting mats to make something of equal or better quality with the salvage. I think that is a happy medium.

    I get Chris thinks that because you can MW/Enchant and item, that that is crafting, but it feels like you only need an enchanter and then everything else is left behind. These armor pieces become so powerfully when MW and enchanted thus making them the must have item to do things with. They are supposed to be rare drop, so it doesn't really create interesting loot if I need a big group and then have to hopefully win on a roll after spending hours at a control point. You also hurt casual players that now need these items to enjoy the hour or two a week they can play. Lets face it a base of +40 damage compared to crafted +20 pct damage is a big difference. So crafters have a beef here for sure.

    On the converse side.. I get we need something other than worn cloaks to loot. Putting crafted armor into the loot pool really never took off and its still usually junk armor when you do get it.

    So how do we improve loot so that the adventurer can have fun and not try and find someone in-game that wants a million to enchant their gear... and pray the person doesn't fail and destroy your low chance drop that you just upgraded....?

    Conversely we need to have the crafting talk. We always said crafting is going to be best from the beginning. If we change that, then crafting needs another avenue to make their time investment worthwhile There are market towns in game built around crafters.. its not something we can just toss under the bus after all these years.

    So how do other games deal with it?
    • WoW has dungeon drop gear, repeat until you get lucky or go for PvP gear early on. Lower level crafting is only useful for leveling up a new toon, but then came heritage armor.. so still useless. You could get some cool one offs from crafting, but generally your raid/dungeon gear was best in slot. On top of this, each expansion usually invalidated earlier armor. Alchemy probably being the only exception to crafting being useful throughout leveling as potions and battle elixirs were still king when I played. Player sales are all done with an auction house that is fully searchable and purchasable from. Originally faction restricted.
    • ESO - Crafting is pretty important in this game, a full set of crafted gear sets up a casual player to be able to handle most of the game's base dungeons and not feel too weak and useless. Dungeon/raid (trial) gear drops are superior, but allow crafting mechanisms to improve them and change enchantments (that are crafted)/traits (requiring crafters to have learned said trait first). Loot in overworld is armor (regional or dungeon based) and crafting mats, and coin. All armor is salvageable with a chance to get an armor upgrade component. This system is pretty easy on the casual player. Player vendors with no real in game search are also the way items are bought and sold in game. You can also obtain armor patterns and furniture recipes as drops and stolen loot.
    • EQ - raids were pretty much it for best gear. Crafted was a tedious thing with lower level crafting being useless, sub combine nightmare land. They did have quests that used crafting to make some interesting items as time moved on (prayer shawl, etc). There were also longer quests for armor, like the Lambent armor that I thought Chris was going for with the new blue heavy stuff https://wiki.project1999.com/Lambent_Armor_Quests . Quest armor continued through expansions, usually requiring some higher level crafted item and drops, from several areas, to create. Even later dropped gear came from tiered areas in expansions, the lower the tier the easier it was to acquire with a solo or small group camp of the tier boss. Raid gear was always top tier. Later on you were even able to craft your spells, crafting evolved with drops over many many years. I can't remember early loot ever being interesting beyond getting gems. Early player sale interactions were done in the East Commons Tunnel with players spamming the local OOC channel with their sales. Later it moved to a centralized bazar setup, but your character, personally, had to go into sale mode.
    • FF14 - I did not play this in it's early conception and this is just my viewpoint on playing it currently, drops from overland are pretty much crafting mats period. Coin is earned in quests, dungeons or events. Dungeon content seems to have the best armor, but it is not tradeable and has a bit of a grind to get something for the class you are playing. Crafting is interesting and engaging as you have to balance quality with durability using crafting skills; additionally you need crafting gear. A high quality crafted item is usually better than a quest reward item. Unused dungeon gear can be traded back to your faction for faction currency. You can salvage fully attuned gear (think building a bond with it over time of use) into materia (augments for gear). Gear has so many augment slots and seems to have a max augmentable stat (can only add a max of 9 crit to this armor piece, etc). Low level crafting is quite useful as you level both crafting, adventure and gathering professions - another game where you can be all classes (jobs) in one toon. Player vendors are setup with retainers that hold and sell your gear for you in a bazar fully searchable format. There are some class quests that award gear, but without materia slots.

    These are just a few examples, but they have been or are all very popular games. They also have large player bases to keep economies running; something we do lack. They are also more quest based games over a camp/grind sandbox game; with the exception of EQ.

    My personal preference would be a combo of all these.. quested, crafted and drop value and interdependency.
    • You have longer quests to get gear that has decent beginner stats to survive your gathering and quest content - you can use some of this system to slowly introduce new players to the skills they need to develop as they level. This would start as the next step when they leave the Outskirts with a good breadcrumb trail to take them to the starting NPC. Then it changes per tier of power. We need a better way to determine adv level or tier level than just base stat increase.
    • You unlock artifact slots as you level with a maximum to the allotment of specializations we are allowed (current 2). Higher ranks in specializations will increase the power of these dropped only artifacts
    • Crafters can now add augmentation slots to gear - quality and number depends on skill and require dropped gear be salvaged or a rare chance during crafting items at higher skill levels.
    • Crafting moves to a skill point based system - you spend points instead of durability as you craft to make a better piece of gear. Limit our randomness to a final finishing touch Allow for batch crafting that won't produce or has a very low chance of producing high quality base materials. HQ base materials should boost your crafting start quality/skill points. Enchanting and MW is fine, but perhaps require completion of lower tiers of the skill to be higher before it unlocks. Not sure we really need the millwork/smelting and textiles - I think these should be a requirement of their finished crafting skill before you open up masterwork and they should provide a better quality base item to utilize. Material will be tiered and be harder to use, require more skill points, to generate items/enhanced items.
    • All gear is now salvageable for crafting components AND a chance at patterns (minus your store bought gear that would always yield an eternal pattern).
    • Chris can create whatever advanced or tiered gear he pleases which drops from tougher mobs or loot bags. - this is useable right away and better than mid tier crafted items, but is salvageable to create a higher quality item of its type. Make these drops uncommon to almost rare.
    • Loot would drop crafting components, rare quest items, gems, gold, blueprints for different things, trap components, gear, artifacts, and augmentations. These could also drop in tier levels - a higher level beetle carapace for example (with a chance of gaining these with a higher gathering skill as well).
    • I like gear affinity - so lets add this so that the resulting salvage will yield a higher end item to augment or increase the power of a regular crafting recipe. This should take a good amount of time to do but be worthy enough that people want to break down their gear for the benefit for tougher content.
    • To control too much power creep and add more skill to the gear game - Alternate points or attunement/specializations could increase the power of these dropped items - say at GM 140 in ranged has an affinity item that adds an extra arrow shot with aimed shot, but second arrow has lower damage output. Higher skill level in that skill will result in that second arrow doing more and more damage. I think this could provide some new play styles by adding odd affinity creations for players. You could also always get a cool effect/item title with affinity salvage as well that follows the items in its reincarnations.

    At any rate, it adds a bit extra yield in crafting mats for crafters (which is sorely needed), it adds some interesting crafting mechanics to an otherwise plain experience, it ties a bit of skill to gear power, and it allows regular gear drops to be interesting and creative, but maintains crafting supremacy without punishing casual or new players.
     
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  7. Mugly Wumple

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    Chris keeps referring to crafting as if it's only enchantments and masterworks. Where is the love for the smiths and tailors. Give the gatherers and refiners some reason for advancement. I think that the creation of gear should have more options. More ingot types, more ore types, more leather types, etc.
     
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  8. Vladamir Begemot

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    Are new players being driven away because the best piece of gear they can possibly attain is hard to attain? I doubt they are even thinking about that.

    Are crafters of all levels hitting the road because most of it has been nerfed into the realm of trivial? Much more likely IMO.

    Everyone is now acknowledging that the Best in Slot gear is drops. That means the dream of SotA crafting is dead.
     
  9. oplek

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    I think the happy medium would be that things you can craft, and things you can obtain, aren't competing, whether it's slots or otherwise. It could be the first ring slot is crafted-only, and the second slot is artifact-only. I mean, there's 6-8 more fingers available.

    Without implementing a item wipe, more slots could be added. Different sorts of things can "drop". No crafters complain about the fire elemental quest because it's not a crafting scenario.
     
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  10. that_shawn_guy

    that_shawn_guy Bug Hunter

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    I don't mind if best in slot starts a drop if crafted gear can equal or at least approach the drops.

    If it takes full tree GM blacksmith 500k work of non-drop raw materials to make a chest then a version starting with a drop that has near equal stats should have near equal value.

    Maybe enchanting artifacts should require essence or some other rare material to boost the cost. I don't know. But, if we're going to call enchanting artifacts "best gear is crafted" then we need to find away to make the hard road of "natural" crafting more useful.

    As it is now, the most "profitable" crafters will just dump all their xp into enchanting.
     
  11. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Bzzzt… thread hotness detected. Adding to watched thread list. Bzzzt…. scannnnnnnning zzt!

    (@Oracle Watcher -- I'm stealin' your style this time hehe)
     
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  12. Oracle Watcher

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  13. jschoice

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    I think one of the biggest issues is how this game currently populates the loot tables of player crafted gear. The only way it enters the system is by crafters selling it to a NPC vendor which makes no sense because there is not gold in doing that which means no incentive for players to sell any decent to very good items to them.

    When I first heard of the loot tables having player made items on it. I thought it was a great idea, but I thought the loot pool would draw from all the possible gear crafted not just what was sold to an NPC vendor. So if I crafted a high end sword and put it up for sale on my vendor I thought there would be a small chance for someone to get a copy of that sword dropped as loot. The frequency would be lower the better the piece of gear was and lower end crafted gear dropping more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  14. Elnoth

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    I think this is where the supply bundles should come more into play. It seems the supply bundle loot tables include too many old artifacts, and not enough of the newer ones, but this could just be my perception?
     
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  15. Numa

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    Just adding this to the pot of ideas.

    The crafter's attunement level in an element should influence the strength, weakness or frequency of the enchant ment related to the element he/she is most attuned to.

    If Bob the water mage embeds a tempestry gem in a weapon or armor piece then the included water spell/bonus should be stronger. And if Bob's fire ward skill is high then the fire ward gems he makes are stronger.

    Conversely, his sorcery gems are less potent because his openness and sensitivity to the water element desensitizes him to a certain extent to fire.

    There should be some relation between crafting and the magical skills you have. Certain choices should matter.
     
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  16. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    That's a nice idea. For a pen and paper game. Here it would force crafters to specialize in magic trees. Which would just creat another bottleneck for equipment.
     
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  17. Malimn

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    Prior to "Artifacts" everyone used crafted gear because that was all we had... Then this "Artifact" faucet was turned on and one by one the best gear in game turned into best drop in game.. Let me preface this by stating yes I have a crafter and all skills are above 115 at the present time.

    IF it was up to me this is how I would resolve the issue with artifacts... Keep them as they are and seriously bump up the rest of the crafted gear to match or be even better than the artifacts. Before you freak out about this hear me out. So you own say a Sword that is an artifact, where did this sword come from and how did it become an "Artifact"?? Someone had to initially make the sword correct? Then the maker of the sword had to do something to make it even better, this can be done via quest or by a gather who harvested and item... Then they have to combine both items either during the initial build or afterward the item is made by creating another item and combining them just like you do during enchanting gems/jewels/wards. So you now own a good base weapon and can now masterwork and enchant the items to match or beat the arty that has been dropped. REMOVE the need for drops or special recipes because that just causes more heartache where some VERY high level people just farm the hell out of what ever beast drops it and then sells it for a ridiculously high price.

    Make the drops happen by making the crafter's go out and have to complete a quest to obtain either the skill, special tool, materials, etc so. Crafters should have to go visit a trainer after Gm or and higher to be able to make better items, say at 100 then at 110, then at 120m etc..

    Let the gathers/harvesters out there have a bonus for their time, fix the crafting system so we make items on par with artifacts, fix the drop rate for beetle carapaces, fix platemail durability where it is on par with chest because a 3 enchant and 3 masterwork with no failures test to be in the 35-50 durability range...

    Also create an UPPER TEARS FOR CRAFTERS!!!! Our experience gain is horrible and it takes FOREVER to gain points.
     
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  18. Lars vonDrachental

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    Thinking about it I would say the current crafting system could be valued as not needed and is more or less just usable as a pastime. Of course for a few this is not true but for the majority any kind participation in crafting is meaningless and erasing crafting complete would most likely not change their gameplay.

    The implementation of artifacts was right as something you have to hunt for in dungeons but making them the strongest available gear is the questionable point.
    The OP suggestion with artifact recipes could help and give crafting a reason to exist again.
    Another comparable possibility would be that artifacts can be salvaged to get sometimes special crafting components. E.g. a special sling that can be used in the normal recipes to create artifact versions of the crafted items.

    Also the point @jschoice mentioned is important. Not everyone can craft items avatars would buy but at least the NPC should pay the price of the components to make crafting not a losing game. As already mentioned as a side effect the loot tables would be filled with items not the cream of the crop but still better than most avatars can craft themselves and if you don't like the item you can still get a decent amount of gold for selling it at the next NPC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  19. CrandalltheFoole

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    This, please!!
     
  20. Vladamir Begemot

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    This is why I wish Chris would just say "we're basically done with crafting" if that's the case. Pull the band aid off. If this game is just for adventurers/combat people, let the rest of us know.
     
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