The happy medium

If crafting stops then the crafting fuel gold sink goes down. Enchanting uses a small amount of mandrake, that probably involved a player buying seeds and water. Then gold and silver probably involved some smelting, so coal and ingot mold.

Artifact combining helps with this will the 100 coal cost. So there is some sink for higher tiered artifacts.

The thing I mainly dislike about artifacts Vs crafted gear is that, at least at the base item level, crafting takes player skills and knowledge, and I mean the player not the character. Artifact just takes luck and time.

Understanding which types of armours, with which materials, give which stats allows the player choices and comprises to make to pick the best gear for their build/play style. There is a lot of choice and depth in the crafting system. But when regardless of the choices you make it is worse than an artifact, all those choices and depth just disappear.

It does need some balancing as some armour types are just better in all respects than others, as they use more components and therefore give more stats.
The component stats could do with looking at too, as some do not give enough to be able to compete with others even at the same tier level.

The things above though are balance tweeks, the system/mechanics itself are sound.



Regards
Spung

 

I love this. It gives the best examples to make crafting and the game much, much, much more interesting. We've always needed crafting quests to progress as well. Levels dont feel the same without that progression and incentives. It is always just grind, grind, grind without the interesting added in.

 

Create a jewel/gem slot for artifacts to be "jewelled" into each craftable item in each character slot. Allow artifacts to be combined into an item, based upon the mastery of the specific slot item. A legendary item would be like a 3rd roll mastery chance, regressing down to a common level artifact being a 1st roll mastery odds for success. A fail damages both the artifact and the crafted item.

Not Alchemy Mastery, the Mastery required for the crafted item made from raw materials.

 

Here's how I think crafting and artifacts should work:

• Artifafacts cannot be enchanted or masterworked!
• Artifacts can still be combined into more powerful versions.
• Artifacts are repaired using normal methods (repair kits).
• When artifacts are salvaged, they give special components that can be used to craft other items.
• Salvaging artifacts still has a chance to give essence, which can be used to add durability to crafted items (up to a certain limit).

 

Voted..... Artifacts are a nuisance to the game. Make crafting great again. Crafting is one of many reasons why I like and enjoy this game. Reminds me of the good old days of Dark Age of Camelot, and Star Wars Galaxies.

 

Well stated, @Spungwa

 

I think they are not…if used the right way. Artifacts should be something special and rare…the reason why you are grinding dungeons over and over again. But at the same time they should not make crafting meaningless and instead offer options for different play styles.
For example for fire mages the crafted gear could offer the best instant damage boost while artifacts could offer the best dot-boost. This way both ways of gaining gear would have a reason to exist.

Or some artifacts are at the start quite useless and needs to be "leveled". I think this was even an idea in the very beginning of SotA. So to say while you are killing elves with the artifact it is slowly becoming an "elven slaughterer" doing more and more damage to elves and might be after slaughtering thousands of elves within this narrow purpose the best item to fight these enemies. But if you start killing kobolds the damage bonus against elves is disappearing and instead the damage against kobolds is raising.
Or the artifact bonus is based on the usage of skill. Casting just ring of fire is slowly enhancing this spell to do more damage or raise its range but casting any other spell will reduce this bonus again.
Not everyone would like those limitations and this way not everyone would use these artifacts.

Also not all artifacts must have a combat usage to be interesting. E.g. if they are offering a nice effect if used as decoration their combat abilities do not have to be outstanding to be worth seeking.
Such effects could be fogs, glowing, singing/music, offering free items from time to time,…
For example there could be a set of 7 artifact swords that are forming a band. On placing and activating an artifact it is playing just one note in a song or one voice in the band. Placing and activating all parts of the artifact-set they will play for example the SotA theme in an endless loop.

 

Reading these responses is exactly the challenge Chris and the team have to deal with. Everyone has an opinion and some are directly opposed to another so they are really in a bind. So there will need to be a time when the team will need to make a decision and go with it. At least Chris is trying to give something's to the crafters and something to the adventurers who want uber loot drops.

I still think the best solution is to come up with a way for uber crafted gear to be dropped as the best loot. The problem is the current system of how player crafted items make it into the loot pools. No crafter is going to make an awesome item and sell it to an NPC vendor for 100 gold when they can sell it to a player for 100,000 gold. There has to be a way that a crafted item is stored on a data base and added to the loot pool instead of going through an NPC vendor. And I am sure with how the system is set up this is easier said then done.

 

Agree that the current system of mob loot enrichment through NPC vendors isn't going to work. Make it a high levrl crafting quest instead with gold snd XP rewards. Make it worth the player's time and effort.

 

I agree they could add a writ system similar to ESO or the bulk order deed that they had in UO. But something to reward crafters without messing up the economy because if the rewards are too great then everyone will do them to farm gold and mats.

 

Well you are going to have some crafters who won't go to those high tier dungeons. They may want to craft and play the game. Adding more meaning and options to crafters is important imo. These include challenges to do crafting quests that offer skill related things, xp, and interesting content.

Crafting quest rewards could include a rare ingredient, another time a good tool, learn a new skill, crafting gear, titles with buffs like extraordinary chef. Crafting skill gains that have meaning, challenges, surprises, and satisfaction. At this point to me it seems almost Everything gets thrown in the loot. Where are the crafting quests? We don't have of course. It feels like it is always grind, grind, grind. While not bad it is only one group of playstyles.

Don't forget everyone in the equation. It can't just go one way for success. Details are important and ATM what I hear is the grind is one of the main focus. How to keep everyone happy without sabatoging the game?

So one of the best things to remember inside of all the stuff getting added in is how does this improve the game for everyone or at least most? Are grinders the most of the population here? I think not. That is just incentives being made available.

People say 'think loot'. It's frustrating and more will never be enough. How to get the basics of this game to a fun, challenging, satisfying experience?

One way imo include achievements and task challenges for reason to play. Another One is to address the whole picture instead of pecking away causing havoc. That's why following a plan instead of reacting to our instinct as humans being reactive etc would really help, and yes I'm human too and I want it my way also. Anyway my 2cents again.

 

But also this system could create problems for crafting. I guess in the beginning this might work but after a while there could be more and more "copied" items on the market and while the crafter most likely prefers to make a profit for the looting avatar there is already profit in selling his loot for 1 gold. Of course they will not do that but they can easy undercut the prices of crafters...this way it would be possible that by crafting items you are ruining your own market because of the created copy.

 

It's too late at the moment, but if crafting catches up to artifacts, and the devs continue to refuse to pay for us to sell to the loot table, then figure out other methods. Titles are worth more than gold, "Blacksmith of the Sword of Strength", which can only be attained by turning in a sword you craft that has no failures, max durability, and +giant amount of strength, would be a great title. That goes on a boss creature as a loot drop.

 

I have a potential fix to this problem, bringing both sides into balance.

1. Artifacts remain in the game. They are still powerful, and could be used normally by players.
2. Artifacts can no longer be Masterworked or Enchanted. HOLD YOUR PITCHFORKS!
3. All current Artifacts are renamed Replica Artifacts. Why? Because there are thousands out there and it would ruin my arm-chair development session. Oh, and it would make all of the following unfair to those of us who don't have dozens/hundreds of them, keeping those that do from getting an advantage on this new system.
   
4. Instead, Artifacts can be salvaged for a Recipe. The Recipe is RNG. The recipe MAY have to be a one-time/limited amount use based on how quickly they could flood the economy (which is also based on how often a particular Artifact drops), but possibly just not teachable. This keeps crafters involved and limits any one person or group from monopolizing the market. The RNG aspect keeps players going after Artifacts and keeps the economy lively (i.e., players who farm to sell; crafters who want ALL the Artifacts Recipes and their associate tiers, which is discussed in the # 5, below). The RNG numbers would have to be tweaked/monitored so as not to flood the economy too quickly. Replica Artifacts remain as they were before, and cannot be salvaged for a recipe (maybe, to be fair, allow them to be salvaged for materials for these new Artifacts I am proposing).
5. The RNG recipe for each Artifact is tiered. Three tiers. Low. Medium. High. In the future higher levels can be added when newer Artifacts are introduced.
6. As an additional bonus to crafting, and still based on RNG, if a recipe is not salvaged from the Artifact (i.e., salvage failed to produce a recipe) then the player has a chance to obtain a Refinement.
7. A Refinement could be added to regular crafted gear (+ whatever MW/Enchanted gear), making it slightly better overall with stats. This Refined Gear could also help spur the economy. It can be slightly below the level of an Artifact, or slightly above the level of an Artifact, which is based on the crafter's expertise and regular crafting RNG.
   
8. The recipe salvaged from an Artifact will require, among other things, materials which are equally tiered (Low/Medium/High). These can be added to the loot table, and again, keep the economy lively (i.e., players who farm and sell; crafters farming to make these themselves). They can be spread across zones and are tied to level of the zone mobs. You can start them off at Tier 6 or Tier 7 zones for Low Artifact Materials, and make Tier 7 or Tier 8 zones drop Medium Artifact Materials, with Tier 8 or Tier 9 (or higher) dropping the High Artifact Materials.
9. Crafters can then craft the upgraded versions of the Artifact, based on the Recipe tier they have obtained. Each category of Upgraded Artifact will be crafted by their respective category of crafter (Tailor, Blacksmith, Leatherworker, etc.). Each recipe tier is progressively harder to craft, with the materials being progressively harder to obtain. The goal being a High-tier Upgraded Artifact would be BiS and extremely difficult to craft, or at least extremely difficult to craft in large quantities. And, of course, you now have three new tiers of gear people will go after, in addition to the Refined Gear (lower-end) and regular Artifacts that people keep to use.

The end-goal for gear would be Crafted > Refined Gear / Artifacts > Upgraded Artifacts, keeping the crafters very busy and, possibly, very happy. It also keeps them in the game, and continues fulfilling the original intent of having the crafters make the best stuff.

These are lofty goals, I know. And there are likely some wrinkles, but in the end has the potential to spur the economy in a positive way. It also is in keeping with the mechanics involved with Masterworked/Enchanted Artifcats, but makes it more involved and splits it up between the respective crafting types.

What do you all think?

EDIT: I attempted to edit this several times and coming back I notice not many of the edits came in. Not sure why. I just wanted to say, yes, I know that a system sort of like this already exists with Masterworked/Enchanted Artifacts. The point of it all was to spread it around amongst the crafting groups and make it more viable for everyone. If that makes any sense.

 

You are the king of RNG, I thought. It's your lifeblood.

 

Hi Magnus, thanks for the post.

I will go through my checklist to see if it ticks the happy balance boxes

Adventurers *tick* they need to farm for the artifact drops
Crafters (tailors/blacksmiths/carpenters) *tick* they will need to craft the new items
Crafters (those that level salvage) *tick* need to use a salvage skill to obtain the component/recipes
Crafters (gatherers) *tick* need to use other gathered materials to craft the final artifacts
Crafters (enchanters and masterworkers) *tick* as they are a part of the solution too

So it ticks all the boxes!

Overall, I like the suggestion bar the fact that I think recipes should be common. I would rather have 1000 recipes drop to 100 rare crafting component, compared to 100 recipes per 1000 crafting component, as this would just put too much economic power into the few that can afford to get the recipe. If the recipe is common, and the rare crafting material is less so, then when you do get a drop you will have more choice as to which crafter you take it to. Some people would prefer to take it to a friend to craft rather than one of the few lvl 130+ skill crafters that can afford to buy all the best stuff.

 

Yeah, there's definitely some tweaking there to be done. The challenge is finding a real balance. There are a lot of people with lvl 130+ in crafting, and we want to keep them engaged but not let them monopolize the market. What I am suggesting is equal opportunity for anyone to "learn" the recipe if they salvage it from an artifact, and it's based on them actually having the luck (RNG) from salvaging. By keeping it rare means you have to hope your friend has it, and the lvl 130 has to hope they learn it to craft it for others. In the end, if both the friend and lvl 130 learn it, you're still going to want to get the best value/equipment - it may be the friend, it may be the lvl 130. It keeps them both in the game, and it keeps the friend striving to get to 130 to compete. I could be (and probably am) wrong. But it's just a thought.

 

Oh yeah and basic crafting recipes in loot was dumb. They should have come from leveling up crafting and from crafting quests. Earned. Some Unusual recipes are fine to discover but not basics which are purchased of all things not earned from crafting. *shakes head*

 

My vote is on getting something from dropped armor loot/artifacts ..that can be attached to a finished crafted item . Components like mossy handle so on...totally bypass the gathering chain and the the need for raw materials .. over time this results in less and less materials being need it and makes the gathering profession something that will no longer be worth doing . As many have stated in this thread already, crafting is not just enchanting or masterworking an item ..thats just the finishing step . Lets build on what we have rather then make things obsolete ... new , improved components remove the need for old ones ...so instead of replacing what we already have lets enhance it .

Lets take as an example the new Plate Armor suit Chris presented in his stream ... if its gonna be salvaged into straps or ingots with better or more wanted stats then what we currently have, has the following consequences for gatherers and for crafters .

1. Less hardened leather straps ( less beetles ) used when making bronze armor , less bronze ingots used less fuels ..like coal so on....if crafters need less mats they wont buy stuff from gatherers anymore.

2.Any dropped item /component ... sets the price for its crafted counterpart ...the better and rarer a dropped item is the more expensive it will be ..while its crafted counterpart if worse will lose its value until it becomes unsellable . We seen it happen with vex wand which cost 400k for uncommon and 16+ mil gold for legendary .... the stats for the uncommon vex are better then the best crafted wand i can make ( 1 in 100 wands usually) which costs me few mils gold to make.

To summarize ... components just render crafted gear obsolete ...but..if i can salvage a legendary vex wand ..get a legendary component and attach it to one of my already enchanted crafted wand to make it close in power as the artifact its self or more... it removes the need for crafted gear to compete with dropped loot ...and keeps artifacts on the ''most wanted'' list for their potential to enhance crafted items .