Leveling Barding is boring

Discussion in 'QA Feedback Archive' started by Echondas, Feb 22, 2020.

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  1. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    Please consider a mini game or something while waiting out the timer on bard skills, or something else besides a timer.

    I'm hitting 8 and then alt-tabbing to write this every 15 seconds or so. We want players to stay in SOTA - not find things to do while waiting for timers/progress bars, or encourage people to macro, etc.

    Thanks.
     
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  2. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Leveling all skills in the game is boring, though.

    Most palatable is combat simply because combat already has a mini-game.
     
  3. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    My roommate is watching me level bard while we eat brunch, and saw this thread headline as I was alt-tabbing (without seeing your post) - and said "levelling everything in this game is boring - it's a real area that needs improvement".

    (he is adding that there are too many skills you need to invest time into unlocking just to get to the 1 skill you really care about)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  4. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    Mini-Game wise - was just thinking that maybe during this 'casting' timer - we had to do something interactive like hitting notes on the keyboard or screen - which if done correctly would increase the power of the song? Sort of like a Lute Hero thing?
    or - maybe a timed puzzle where you have to assemble the song fragments (verse, refrain, chorus, etc) in the proper order
     
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  5. Vladamir Begemot

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    Obviously a mini game isn't happening.

    However, thinking about it like practicing music, you get better as you play, not at the end of the song. You probably ought to be slowly (or quickly) putting points into the skill the entire time it is being cast.

    And with that, effects at the end of the skill is not the right way to do it either. You start playing a song (any) and activate the spell, like you would a stance if stances worked correctly in this game (stay on until you trigger a different one). The effect is on the entire time, until you change the effect/stance. The song keeps playing, so we're not interrupting it.

    Of course that gets rid of the mega blast. But does anyone think that is a good idea anyway? It is kind of the ultimate representation of the bard system, which became "really long spells" instead of instantaneous buffs.

    Disclaimer, maybe the buffs are instant, I haven't loaded up QA. But my impression was it all happens at the end of the really long spell. That is actually what is known as ritual magic, and should be a spell tree, but entirely different than barding.
     
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  6. the Lacedaemonian

    the Lacedaemonian Avatar

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    A mini game like gumps from Ultima/UO era style, a tiny little interface with let's say, a miniature game board similar to checkers or chess. I don't see why this is off the table.

    The thinking that things which are creatively outside of "the box" should be discouraged and ignored, shut down at the mere mention... Such things would not be so difficult to implement if enough support for the effort was found.

    If you begin to think about what's impossible being actually quite easy with the right initial idea, things become easy.

    I would like to add, such a mini-game that essentially does nothing more than increase a crafter's chance for an Exceptional item would involve a reasonably twitch-dexterity on a timer type of test that had a random feature.
     
  7. Vladamir Begemot

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    We can dream of mini games until the cows come home, but exactly zero have been implemented even though players have been asking for them to un-boring different system for years for years. Meanwhile bards are going in now, and if they are boring then that's another failed system.

    And there is no way they should be boring or need a mini game right out the door, that is a failure of design.

    So lets think about the base design to make it stand on its own rather than try to put a band aid on top.

    To me "don't get hit" is a key part of barding, as that currently stops songs, but at a minimum should reduce the effectiveness of them. Bards should be dealing with ever increasing aggro and be the most hit averse group.

    I would think their spells actually gain power over time, culminating in a crascendo, so if they get knocked out of the spell they lose their finale, a very musical oriented experience. They were still helping until that moment though.

    A good bard should also be constantly switching their affect (the spell) on the fly in order to make the team more effective, while doing everything they can to avoid being hit, and entertain us all with good music as well. Music that last across many changes of affect.

    And I've heard no mention of synchronized bards increasing their combined power level, but that will be a total swing and a miss if it doesn't happen.

    And to make leveling not boring, have it constantly happening. Music is ongoing.

    Barding itself should and can be entertaining enough to not need an artificial band aid (mini-game) put on top. If it does need one, then it fails Game Design 101. "This isn't good enough so lets distract with something else".
     
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  8. Numa

    Numa Avatar

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    In essence then, bards should be the polar opposite of fire mages whose spells tend to overwrite each other. Your idea would partially solve the problem of "too many bards" in a group which I forsee happening soon after bards become live :)

    Don't lose heart Vlad - things aren't that hopeless.
     
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  9. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    The puzzle box is a mini game - maybe that tech could be leveraged to expand it a bit into something for combat?
     
  10. Vladamir Begemot

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    Maybe for something. But if you were in a game design class and handed in a prototype that wasn't fun, and then handed in a mini game on top of that prototype instead of addressing the underlying issue, you would get an F.

    Speaking of which, making many prototypes and throwing away those that don't work is a fundamental part of successful studios. Unfortunately for us, once the design is in it sticks, the devs have never thrown anything out, they just add more on top. This is a fundamental flaw that stems from the monthly agile releases, and is causing us lasting pain.

    A prototype should only take a few days to put together. If it isn't amazing, throw it away and try again.
     
  11. Daxxe Diggler

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    At 15 second cast time, it's going to take a loooooooooong time to level up the bard skills. Even once you get down to Rhythmic Readiness (passive that reduces song cast time) it's still going to take a long time to level up these skills.

    I got my Rhythmic Readiness up to level 30 and the song cast time only got reduced to like 13 seconds! (And this was in offline mode with a manufactured Adv. XP Pool of 20,999,999,999,999 to start with, and using an Obsidian Potion of Guidance.)

    For a legit person to try to level these on live server... it's probably going to take forever and a day to get anywhere in this tree.

    I suggest either making the cast time shorter, or reducing the xp requirement per level to make it possible to feel like you are actually making some progress.
     
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  12. Vladamir Begemot

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    Or level as you play?
     
  13. Violet Ronso

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    You are not mistaken in the fact that the effects (buffs & damage) happen at the end of the bit. The thing is, I can imagine this concept very well, a bit like many games have done before, where it is the combination, the tune in itself, that will generate the "power" or "energy" and that at the end up the charging up, you play that final accord to fling the effect out of your charged up fingers.

    There is two ways to see the bard 1. The constantly playing and effects happen while hearing the tune kind of bard, (Warframe is the only game I've played with a "bard" type that happens like this)
    and the 2. play a tune to charge up an effect kind of bard. (Monster Hunter is like this, Zelda Wind Waker was like this).

    I doubt the choice between both types is one that will please everyone, but I think we need to remember there isn't always our own vision of something! (totally not aimed at you vlad, just a general statement).
     
  14. Anpu

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    Or there’s a third kind of bard. If you think outside the box.
     
  15. Vladamir Begemot

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    The reason I think it should be the second in Shroud is that we have the ABC files.

    But it's not, so we'll see if #1 is fun. Hopefully some enjoy it. Flinging it out isn't so much up my alley.
     
  16. Daxxe Diggler

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    Yea, I suppose that would work too. Not a bad idea to have the skill leveling up slowly (but constantly) as you play the individual songs.

    Not sure how hard that would be to code since it would be different from how everything else levels up (might be tricky for the passives in the tree too)... but it would work IMO.

    And, now that I'm thinking in this direction, it would probably be better if all the bard songs were like toggles. Start playing one and it stays on (constantly gaining skill) until you run out of focus or change to a different song. I wasn't really a big fan of not being able to interrupt a song anyway, especially with the 15 second cast time. So, if they made them toggles instead of how they work not, it would allow for more flexibility for a bard to help respond to combat situations better.
     
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  17. Jezebel Caerndow

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    Could they possibly just increase the rates of the exp going into the skill per use? I know some skills have different draw rates of exp then others.
     
  18. kaeshiva

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    This.

    ANYTHING that encourages the player to tab out of the game and do something else due to arbitrary/pointless 'wait' sinks needs to be re-thought.
    Skill training for me usually feels active, obviously the new bard skills not so much, its like levelling torpor all over again.
    But refining bars? Respawn timers on resources (looking at you, 10 minute wait at the mines)? NPC schedules? All are things that basically tell the player - nope, you're stuck waiting for this for no other reason than we decided you should wait.

    Even the gathering bars could use a boost, or get more of a speed boost from skills. Especially if the respawn is going to stay as bad as it is.

    Making necessary, but boring repetitive 'you need to wait for this to finish' content just encourages people to bot/macro it. Either speed it up, or make it more engaging. More engaging does not mean 'requiring more pointless clicks' tho, cause that's just further encouraging automation.
     
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  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    Bard play should be fun in and of itself, without putting a separate game on top of it. If you need a mini game to make it fun, then the core design is flawed and should be PROTOTYPED some more until a fun version is found.

    Ideas flying straight from the forehead into the game should never happen. Prototype, get feedback, throw stuff out, find the fun. That is a tried and true game development principle.

    Think something up, put it in, need to make a mini game on top because the first thing sucked is a tried and failed method.

    --
    And yeah, the bars gotta go. I've been insta crafting in No Man's Sky and have to really prepare myself mentally for the drudgery of SotA's crafting bars. But the answer is to just take them out, not put in a mini-game. Or to make it so you can set up your crafting queue and walk away (another thing you can do in NMS, and so many other games.)
    --
    The problem with mini games is you're going to make one that not everyone likes. Or if you do it be just thinking something up and not even getting any player feedback, you're going to make one that nobody likes. Now you've got something annoying on top of something boring. So now you've gotta make a mini game for the mini game.
     
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