Durability Costs for Ench/Mw are Too High

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Mar 5, 2020.

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  1. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    @Chris stated on one of his tweets ..that next month hes starting work on crafting so hoping he reads this and adds it to his list of things to adress .

    Crafting has lot of issues... for now gonna adress the durability costs.

    The recent durability cost changes when ench/mw an item have dropped the bar so low..that even when you get a great item ( without failures ) it will still look like crap cause it wont have any durability left. Im sure when Bzus did the math it looked good on paper ..but in reality you start with 200 (260 durability and 1 mw is gone ) item and when you are finished all that is left is a 20-30-40 durability item ...which for a weapon is disastrous .

    95% of the items i have on my vendors ( 1000 plus) are bewteen 20-40 durability . 99% of the items i have on vendors have at least one failure on them . This is an issue that has to be adressed .

    What Bzus didnt take into account, is that as a crafter i always push the limit to what an item can become . Give me a 300 durability item and i will push until i get what i want . However if you limit crafters to only being able to make 3/2 items ( cause no durability left) ... you chip away at our ability to make great items and just make everyone craft low durability ..standardised items.

    Lets take a 2h exceptional sword as an example

    A perfect 2h sword needs 3 mw and 2 enchants -

    From mw people usually want - Thrust /rend/coup
    From ench - 34 str + 17 str

    The durability costs

    From mw - 30+30+30 = 90 durability cost
    From ench - 55 + 40 = 95 durability cost

    Total - 185 durability just to make a 3/2 two handed sword assuming no failures ( which is very rare)

    What we are left with is a perfect 2h sword with 15 durability ... which none is gonna buy for obvious reasons ....

    So as a crafter im stuck with not being able to make great items because the math for durability cost is just too damn punishing . This is one of the many things that needs to be fixed with crafting ...

    One way to do it is to finally allow crafter skill to matter when crafting items ...if i craft a sword with lvl 100 blacksmithing i should get 50 extra durability ..for every 5 more levels after, it should add 5 more durability . Or if my enchant/mw is lvl 100 , enchants/mw should cost 20 less durability for each 5 levels, after that 2 less durability costs .

    Hope this gets adressed .
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    The first issue with durability is that exceptional chance needs to scale better with skill investment.
    Currently grandmastering a skill 50 times over (in terms of experience) raises exceptional chance only a few %.
    Honestly, a grandmaster should be exceptionalling more often than not. The only difference with exceptionals is durability and players with significant investment should be able to nail that 100% of the time or close to it.

    The next issue with durability particularly on the 2h weapons is, as you've pointed out, that the costs are absurd and a single failure on an item doesn't necessarily ruin it but usually once you fail unless you're working something expensive its often better to just start again and try to sell the botched piece on an ever-bulging vendor of unwanted items.

    The fallacy of item durability in Sota is that items will wear out and players will go back to the crafters to buy another creating a sustainable business.
    The reality is that they use mediocre weapons, or "close enough" weapons, or no-stat indestructable weapons (such as crown store items) because using nice things costs too much to bother with.

    It all boils down to the fundamental problem that the crafter, no matter how many years they've spent investing/developing their skill, cannot reliably create what the customer wants.
    If they could, then durability would be less an issue, equipment could be more disposable because equipment would be replaceable.
     
  3. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Yeah durability needs a rework.
     
  4. that_shawn_guy

    that_shawn_guy Bug Hunter

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    The only economic use for durability at the moment is to define "junk" gear. No matter how good a crafter you are, you've got to sell items (if you sell at all) with low durability that many players see as junk. No matter the stats.

    Since a crafted item rarely (or legendarily) need to be replaced, durability has little economic impact. Why not remove it from the game all together?

    I say that with about 50% sarcasm. But, if something isn't serving the intended purpose, why keep it around? I'd rather have 10 solid systems rather than 100 half finished ones.
     
  5. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Honestly, the "permanent replacement" of gear doesn't happen that often, and the economic impact to do regular repairs is nil due to the overabundance of free repair kits that you get from loot.

    [​IMG]
    This is what I have in my 'drop things off' box and I purge this semi-regularly and trade gear kits for toolkits since those are the only ones I really use.

    The whole "my gear eventually becomes trash" is, honestly, a huge detriment as far as I'm concerned and only works if RNG is removed from the creation process.
    Our current system, of 1-in-100 chance of getting the item you're trying to make (even with rerolls) does not need a 'gear permadeath' option. It just really doesn't.

    I'd rather see regular gear maintenance/repair be made more relevant, its an easy cash sink that most other games of this sort employ without the permanent punishment or stress of worrying that your 1-in-a-million supercraft is one day going to become a potato. Given the other circumstances which make up our economy, I'd find it much more likely that a crafter could charge a premium for a very nice item if the buyer knew that that purchase was going to last them, that's that gear slot taken care of unless I find something better. Even though we know that it probably WILL last them until they find better, the perception of permanent loss will always give pause.
     
  6. Mhtic700R

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    Having much lower durability will make items a need for replacement.

    But for that to work it needs to be made much cheaper to enchant/masterwork.

    Just my 2 cents, but im not a crafter ^^
     
  7. OzzyOsbourne

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    Fzol had the great idea to allow special blanks to drop or pieces we can salvage from dropped items that can be used to make better items because they would give much more durability. So instead of massively scrapped all the items taht are currently in game with a huge change to durability, just add a new component that is rare for people to hunt down. This would be a nice way to not sucker punch the economy.

    Also, side note; when I craft my spears, I always take durability increase as the first choice because the following 2 masterworks are always stronger but the durability increase is always the same number. So i start with durability mw increase and make sure the 3rd mw is puncture to get the max damage out of puncture. If my spear started as exceptional, it is always a really decent piece.

    But I do agree, when they are not exceptional and no durability mw, they are basicly worthless and I just grind them to a pulp and salvage. This is important though imo for the economy. You should appreciate that since you make a lot of items :p
     
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  8. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    My understanding is that we are not to be making 3/3+ items as often as they are to be considered legend/epic. That is why there is the trade off between dur and pushing it. I understand where you are coming from though. I do believe there is for sure a few items that need more durability as they are even too low on a non exceptional. They also have the +dur option which is to allow you to get 1 more if lucky 2 more mw/enchants on them but they cost you in the end. If anything I would love to see a small boost to some items dur. As to most being 20-40dur same boat for my high end stuff but I have no issues selling it because my prices are very low in comparison. I have to restock weekly. There are for sure some items that don't sell mainly because the stats are not as good as top items which people have. I think that more wearing of weapons over time with limit on major repairs would help push things better as I see people who are on 5+ major repairs. well every major does seem to weapon the item more there needs to be something to push a refresh of weapons I think a little more frequent. The downside I see is cost of replacements if too frequent would not be affordable for most even at my lower prices.
     
  9. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    No you are absolutely right. Why would vendors sell their items at a reasonable price if they have close to no chance of getting the actual stats on an item? Now once that happens, why would I as an adventurer buy that item if I risk losing it too fast due to its low durability? Perfect MW/ENCH items cost a fortune! Now once I have actually decided to buy that item, why would I ever replace it? That item is only going to serve me in fights I need the perfect set, so boss fights, no ransom PvP, or really high level content where I need the extra push. The rest of the time I will use what is considered a junk item! Now let's say my perfect Item becomes too low on durability, once again, why would I replace it? Using cotos to major repair it a few times is a far better choice, both because of the time it might take me to find a similar item, but also because it is gonna be WAY cheaper.

    The current state of RNG crafting paired up with crap durability makes it so items are worth far more than any casual player can afford, and so not cost efficient for anyone else than a min maxer or idiot (like me) should be using them...

    Chris, if you do work on crafting, this is your mission, make crafting not a 1 in a 1000 chance to actually get the item you want, with a 30 durability left, for all the materials cost required to make 1000s of the same item. If you actually manage that, prices will be better.
     
  10. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I tend to make what I am for most the time, as of late many of my good items are 50-70dur. Prices are where I think the issue is to be honest. Most people charge too much for what they think something is worth. I am a 120+ GM and my +17 to +2x items are only 100-120k. I price it that way because of Dur and because I know it will break and because that sale pays for my mats and time. I make enough from that one sale to make 10+ new items when I buy materials. To me that is enough gold to keep me going. The other side to that is its more affordable to my customers. There is a reason Silverdale market went from 16th top market to 4th in less then 6 months its because people buy a lot and rebuy a lot because we sell in the range of what market shows that people can afford frequently. So from my prospective I think they either need to look at the higher level crafters to make some adjustments for 110, 120, 130 ect perhaps to reduce the dur loss on the mw/enchants rather than putting more dur on an item. I also think perhaps the issues are that people need to rethink the prices of the items in order to move stock faster if they think things are not selling.
     
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  11. kaeshiva

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    With everything else being equal, some sort of sink for all the junk would improve the shopping experience considerably.

    Almost everyone that I craft for, I craft for because they would rather come to me and work on stuff with materials than struggle with shopping, with vendor after vendor glutted with junk and having
    to hover over every individual item to see if its decent, checking carefully durability, checking carefully if its been major repaired, etc.

    For folks that really don't want to deal with materials and decisions, I have a list of places I send them where I know the vendors are reasonably priced and good quality.
    The problem is even when given that direction, the shopping is still a chore because if you've spent the money to craft an item, obviously you want to sell it, even if its got some mistakes or isn't really what you were intending to make. Someone might want it, right? So you throw it on a vendor. And there it stays. I've found vendors with the same crap sitting on them languishing for months. Some of it just sits, some active vendors reduce prices and such, but there's just way too much of it that nobody wants.

    A junk-sink and vendor improvements would solve a LOT of the issues, durability aside.
     
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  12. OzzyOsbourne

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    mastery...

    all my spears are practicaly identical, the only difference being the durability, but if they are all the same, I dont care about their usage, i just grind till they are 0/2 and never major repair because... MASTERY makes it almost impossible for me to mess up

    You must be talking about special items that are 4/3 or something, to me that is just a waste and not even worth mentioning because they are so impossible and really not even worth making in the first place
     
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  13. Boris Mondragon

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    From a non crafter perspective durability is paramount. I look for at least 50 + dura on my armor weapons as I take the extra dmg to both due to melee using body slam. My question is why do the npc vendor still pay crap value for crafted gear.

    Give the crafted excess low durability items at least 50 pct of mats value and the crafters can sell the good gear at a lower price + special orders for their good profits. It’s not rocket science @Chris to solve this dilemma. Between the low durability and the artefacts out there crafters are getting the short end of the stick over and over.

    R/Boris/El Pirata
     
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  14. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    question, albeit I only craft typically my cloak and helms, so I'm by no means a good crafter, and I buy the remainder of my items other than the occasional artifact I like, so please bear with me as I learn.

    3/2 seems to be the common cut-off, but if it gets easier to have a 3/3, would the next step be to ask for a 4/3, then a 4/4, 5/4 then 5/5 etc? When would it stop? When would be enough? Couldn't another approach be that periodically through time, better/variety of additional enchants and masterworks be added, the more creative the better? Seems a bit more interesting to me. Though it does seem durability is a bit all over the place sometimes for items in same slot.

    Teach me oh wise ones.
     
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  15. Elrond

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    - The crafting system already has 5 masterworks and 5 enchants as a limit ... do we need to limit it again at 3/2 with durability costs ?

    While some weapons like polearms are fine with 1 puncture mw and 2 str enchants (1/2) ..other items need more mw to make them viable /sellable ( at least 3 mw for swords and staffs , which also needs 4 enchants )...but if durability is a restriction means those weapons will be out of the production chain as you cant sell them for enough gold to actually recuperate the amount you invested to make them.

    One of the reasons we have so much junk crafted gear on vendors is because our players are smart , they dont buy junk gear . They want perfect or close to perfect and as crafters we have to deliver ...but if the game says no we wont allow you to make perfect 2 handed swords ....then we dont craft 2h swords .... or we make few junk ones just so we can have some more junk added to the junk pool .
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
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  16. OzzyOsbourne

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    More choices only makes it harder to get the right peice because of RNG. The mastery helps for certain things when you DONT socket first, but for mages, its much more difficult since the pool of choices is larger when socketed. For me, as a spear user, its pretty simple and easy to get what I want and always got for 3/3 making sure I get puncture last for MW and Major Str last for enchanting. If durability is added, the same complaint will be heard for 4/3 items and so on so adding more durability 'just because' isnt gonna solve anything. Having components drop in the world for people to hunt down that could give better durability is a much 'more fun' option imho.
     
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  17. Elrond

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    I dont agree with that ... a component from loot means a component from crafted gear gets replaced ..means less raw materials used , means gatherers become obsolete or will no longer sell their wares .

    When i need to make fire wands i dont make 2 fire wands i make 100 plus to make sure i can beat the rng and get at least 1 item with perfect stats ... you replace 1 component from this chain with dropped loot and were suddenly talking about alot less wood, resin, sooty bark or bettles that will no longer be used .

    Crafters need to get control for the items they craft that means they need to affect the durability of the items they make just as the stats are affected by skills .

    More power and more control for crafters is what we need....

    Make salvage level matter - the higher the level the more salvage you get , or higher chance to extract a rare component
    Make durability on crafted items affected by innate skill level - if im level 100 carpentry i should get 20 extra durability for all my items .
    Allow us to impact components found as loot when assembled ...if i have lvl 100 carpentry i should assemble a mossy handle in a spear with 120 health instead of 100 because im GM.

    so on ....

    I find the current '' communist '' system is very detrimental to the economy ...lets make everyone equal when it comes to crafting , no matter their level... and look where we are ... 99% of the current players are crafters who make their own gear and want to sell crafted gear to the other 99% .... doesnt matter if your lvl is 100 or 150 ... we all apply same bonuses with very insignificant fluctuations .

    So for my part i expect those with high level skills in crafting to feel much more rewarded in what they can do then someone whos been leveling skills for 3 days . None is saying dont craft your own gear ... but if you want to compete in the market you have to invest in your skills ... i think its only fair .
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  18. Boris Mondragon

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    Brother; I cannot speak for others (mage or ranged) whose playstyle allows in my opinion to have gear last longer. I somewhat agree about needing to have armor and weapons wear out yet for melee/Bodyslam it’s very costly unless I fight only mage mobs.

    It’s just the concept behind it that I disagree with when we can have a better system to get rid of the junk out there and have crafters make their hard earned gold. They put up the time and resources so why is it so difficult to give them at least half the cost of their mats via NPC sales?

    Maybe my logic is too simplistic as I try to find the quickest and most efficient way to solve an issue. Must be my military thinking. R/Boris
     
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  19. eli

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    You've misunderstood the problem. In his example, a 3/3 is not difficult, it is impossible, as a 15 durability item is not able to be worked. Not as in it is unadvisable, but that the system does not let you try.

    I used to keep a massive stack of silver so that I could gather statistics every time they cut a new QA build, and as a result I have masterworked thousands of items beyond what anyone would ordinarily. I have only gotten to 5x one time while doing this.

    Since this was back when items exploded on failure, it is a representation of getting a non-failure item in today's mechanics.

    There is absolutely nothing remotely common about it, and the stats you get make it foolish. Those two soft caps prevent the hypothetical you proposed.

    Item churn does desperately need to be introduced IMO.. but making newly-crafted items have worse stats than existing items actually works backwards, against that goal.
     
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  20. Charon

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    I'm not a wise one but I'll give it a shot. I don't think anyone is asking for it to be easier to make a 3/3 or anything like that. RNGesus handles that part well enough as in it's not easy.

    My skills are nowhere near a lot of high end crafters. I'm basically 107 skill across the board, craft on expert tables, wear the rings, use founder/artisan tools and get the blessings, etc so assuming everything works as advertised I'm in the 115-125 range effective.

    The issue is the base durability of some items. I use swords .. shortswords to be specific and when it's time to make a new set of swords I make AT LEAST 100 of them before I even bother thinking about mw/enchanting anything. If I got lucky making those 100 shortswords I'll end up with 20-30 exceptionals that have 150 durability. The rest aren't worth the silver, gold or mandrake I'd use to mw/enchant them as even if I have no fails I'm looking at 50-60 durability on a 2/2 with no fails and that sword will have very little, relatively speaking str or won't have either thrust or double slash on it which are essentially must haves for my play style. To get something I'd consider usable it really needs to be at least a 3/2 (str mw, thrust mw, dbl slash mw with str and major str enchants) that's absolutely best case and that uses 88 of the 150 durability the item started with.

    Does everyone NEED 24+ str on a sword? No they don't. Do I want it? Yes .. yes I do but it also means my "failure" rate is high enough to make your eyes bleed and each new set of swords or armor costs a small fortune if you add up everything it took to make it.

    Also, while I'm thinking about it, it'd be nice when item durability is increased any existing items also had their max durability increased. If I'm going to dream I might as well go big huh?
     
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