PVP work as solution to low population issue

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Antrax Artek, Apr 28, 2020.

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  1. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    I believe that after years of talking about the topic, after discussions, positive and negative exchanges of opinion is in front of everyone's eyes that ignoring this important style of play has produced catastrophic results to say the least in the long term, putting to flight an exaggerated number of old and new players who hoped after the long grinding and progression system offered by the game to have an endgame content worthy of the name.

    I know, many vocal players are old school players, which perhaps give importance to other aspects that have been seen and revised by the developers over the years.
    But what remains for some to understand is that times have changed, it is absurd to think of attracting an important number of players to themselves, completely ignoring one of the most practiced game styles in the world of online games, often putting it at a disadvantage until point of forcing some to change game.

    It's 2020, soon R77 for SotA and years after years almost any request or suggestion labeled with "PVP" tag was discriminated against and cornered.
    We can see the results directly on the numbers, this attitude has only produced damage to the health of the game while other mmos using this playstyle built something special, attracting an impressive number of players who didn't necessarily love PVP but were able to live with it.

    The PvPers have always asked with respect for the attention, without trying to sink the playstyle of others but demanding due changes, we have been ignored for years and this has only produced negative aspects.

    What if it is precisely for this reason that after years of development the game has not been able to take off?

    Many mmos have to deal with performance problems, crashes, even serious bugs but if the heart of the game works people continue to stay there, what instead doesn't help for new and old players retention is lack of motivation, meaningless progression, exploits and bad design.

    Hasn't the time come to try the road that has been ignored for years considering that the current one hasn't worked at all?
    The game is saturated with contents, while the PVP has stopped at the pre-release.

    Risk vs Reward is the key to appeal people, having just one of these like it is now is not going to work, at the moment we have Risk only in PVP and Reward only in PVE.

    PS: Those who do not intend to contribute to the discussion with something constructive related to the topic could also do without answering, we avoid episodes of disrespect, hate and flame as has happened to date.
     
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  2. Vladamir Begemot

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    A pre-alpha UI coupled with incomplete systems is why the game never took off.

    But since it is now owned by someone who is really only interested in combat, and the UI, a real quest system, interactivity between the many systems, crafting, etc will never be finished... And most of us who wanted those things to get finished are done waiting...

    Yeah, he might as well go full on PvP, at least it is something he's interested in.

    When life gives you a complete seven course meal that just needs to be thrown in the oven but all you are interested in is lemonaid, make lemonaid.
     
  3. Violet Ronso

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    I put in bold the only two systems that have actually been announced to have some real work outside of combat. Sannio and Elgarion confirmed they were working on quests, they could possibly be trying to use Inky for that who knows, meanwhile Chris was supposed to work on Crafting this release if it wasnt for all the bug fixing. Meanwhile, apart from a possible PvP queue, which still helps zero to the actual PvP problem, is the only talks since the Obsidian Trials.

    So yeah, sure, seems like the team is only working on lemonade, sure :p
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    All I can say to Chris working on crafting is "Welp, there goes crafting, what there was of it."

    Quests will never be satisfying for the general public when their UI is a 1990's mud. And it is clear that the devs don't think that spending time on the UI is important, because the new phrase is "Lua will fix the UI", meanwhile the Lua hooks never happened for anything but... wait for it... combat!

    Until they hire an actual UI designer, nothing is moving forward except in combat. It might change, maybe crafting will get another solid nerf, but it won't improve.

    So, they might as well focus on what Chris loves, which is combat, and just forget the rest.

    Edit: The oven is the UI. It really ties the room together.
     
  5. Jackrabbit

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    @Antrax Artek Well said buddy, well said. Unfortunately, it always falls on deaf ears.

    Grumpy Krabnevir
     
  6. Vladamir Begemot

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    BTW I wasn't trying to be sarcastic about my support. Maybe bitter, but not sarcastic. Since Chris loves PvP, and is interested in it, that would be a good use for his time.

    Fixing a bunch of things he has never touched before isn't. Neither is half creating new systems.

    The game needs some finished systems, if it turns out PvP is the first one, so be it.
     
  7. kaeshiva

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    Meaningful PvP (definition a bit wobbly, but we'll go with it) can certainly bring in more people.
    Key word is meaningful. Currently the only PvP mechanics Sota has are "gankbox scenes" where players can attack other players engaged in a PvE activity, which I think even PvPers agree is not "meaningful PvP"

    However its a double edged sword, because there's another demographic of players who wont touch anything that is going to force pvp on them under any circumstances. The trick is to add PvP a in a way that it is interesting and players are encouraged to do it, without making it the 'only route' to any goal and thus a forced system, or you'll alienate as many people as you gain.
     
  8. kaeshiva

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    This statement however, is pure bunk. While yes there has been some polite discussion, there's also been a lot of finger pointing, personal attacks, and other unpleasantness - and I hate to say it, mostly from the "PvP side" wishing to inflict their gameplay style on persons uninterested. I'm not saying that "all" PvPers behave this way, and there's certainly been anger from both directions, but it always gets noisy.

    Any system which forces another player into a conflict they have zero interest in / can't win/ don't want is is absolutely "sinking the playstyle of others" especially if such is heavily incentivized and/or the only way to achieve a PvE related goal. And year after year, suggestion after suggestion, it always seems to boil down to this 'all or nothing' mindset where "some" PvP players want to be able to harass/victimise players who aren't interested. That's simply never going to be widely accepted.

    There's a lot of us who would be all for some sort of battleground, or faction war, or castle conquest type systems whose rewards fit within the PvP space and benefited PvP style play. But discussions always seem to devolve into hostility - because consensual, meaningful PvP is NOT what a lot of people are asking for - they're asking for a free pass to kill helpless players who aren't interested. I'm all for theorycrafting a 'meaningful' pvp system, but I will always adamantly oppose open-griefing scenarios.
     
  9. Antrax Artek

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    That's exactly my point, a large part of PVPers don't want to force those who don't want to PVP into PVP.
    The only thing most people want is to have atleast half of the attention from devs as it has been for other playstyles like crafting, fishing, decoration, housing, players owned dungeons etc.

    The "forces another player into a conflict they have zero interest in" is one of the excuses which contributed most to the precarious situations in which we find ourselves, cause even if over the years someone may have said something similar, this is light years away from what has been asked instead.

    PVP zones are among the worst areas in game, they are few, they do not give good rewards and no one PVPers wants to see its revenues from materials, experience and gold cut cleanly playing in these zones rather than safe private zones.

    Having a decent revenue atleast comparable to safe zones doesn't affect the gameplay of those who don't want to have anything to do with PVP but for sure not having it affects negatively on those who want the PVP to be an integral part of their gameplay during their activities.

    Because of this, the game has lost an insurmountable number of less vocal players, no commitment has been made for years with regard to PVP.

    It goes without saying that PVPers want to force anyone who doesn't want to make PVP into PVP, instead, The PVPers want other PVPers not to feel forced not to play in the PVP areas due to the terrible situation of these.

    I think very few or no PVPers benefit and enjoy killing those who have no idea how to deal with a fight between players dressed in "bound to account" equipment bought in the crown store.
     
  10. kaeshiva

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    Proceeding on this premise then, what can we think of that would tick these boxes?
    • Be meaningful - have a purpose beyond just whacking someone for the sake of it
    • Be lightweight/easy to implement (ie. quick dev win)
    • Be rewarding without being exclusively rewarding?

    For meaning and reward, there have been no shortage of suggestions. Some of the ones I like the best are PvP commodities, such as chaos attunement gems harvestable in the shardfalls/ruins, perhaps with a higher NPC value to give PvPers a revenue stream while they're out looking for action, or other resources that can be acquired when killing players in these areas or even from monsters in these areas that could be socketed into equipment and only give bonuses against other players. The first is pretty easy dev-wise I'd imagine, whereas the second would involve a lot of crafting system integration that may be more cumbersome.

    A quick win, I would think, would be to find a corner in the various ruins/shardfalls and add some of these high XP wave events. The biggest yawn for me in the early days is you'd spend loads of time out in the shardfall and see no action because nobody bothered going there (there's nothing there) and other than kicking the occasional cotton bush, it was a snooze fest. Making these zones have viable 'grind spots' that are "on par" with doing a CP (and, well, better due to the multiplayer/flagged bonus) would be a good start. Players not interested could of course continue to get their experience elsewhere, but players who wanted to see some pvp could use this option. Its not a complete fix, because there still needs to be some reason to deal with the hassle of PvP if your ultimate goal is experience, but it would keep the scenes from being ghost towns while other more robust initiatives are worked on.

    Also the possibility of adding a daily quest in these to get some sort of PvP currency - to be used on vendors such as the one that was in Obsidian Trials. This would be more appealing because if you were quick/sneaky you could do these without actually PvPing but you opt in to the risk. As long as the rewards are 'pvp themed' I don't think there'd be any strong objections.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  11. Rowell

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    In regards to PVP, having PVP in the game is fine, as long as it's not forced on anyone that doesn't want to partake in it, and it doesn't take away from other players that don't involve themselves in PVP.

    That being said, I've always seen PVP in SOTA as pretty much pointless. Aside from the weekly EVL PVP competition, there's really no point to it. There's no fun to it or point to it (at least from my point of view). Go around ganking other players that are flagged...mmm, okay...why? Just cuz? Alright, that's a big turn off when someone with 256 GM's rolls up on someone with 2 and destroys the person. Sure way to turn people off from PVP.

    World of Warcraft has Battlegrounds, where PVP has an objective (capture the flag, hold the most resource nodes, fight to and defeat the enemy general, etc). Relatively short battles that have an objective. Add some leader boards to show who has the most flag captures, or wins in a particular game scenario. Something to make it a lil bit more fun.
     
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  12. Restless

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    @Elgarion and therefore catnip games completely disagrees with their “pvp” event thread.
     
  13. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    I'll attempt other styles of PvP events in the future. That was just my first one. I adore PvE/PvP mix and have spent most of my PvP years in open world PvP games. Lots of flavors of PvP out there, and hopefully I can touch on all of them at some point and narrow down the popular ones here. Keep in mind, that event was trying to give you guys something fun to do with existing content in the game, with prizes/rewards. I can't make new tech for you, that's the smart guys in the other room. But no... in absolutely no way does that event relate to any sort of PvP vision of the entire Catnip Team. False.
     
  14. Restless

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    Do you represent Catnip? Would you have done the event without working for the company? With the titles of Community Manager and SOTA Developer, I suspect you do represent Catnip and that you would not have attempted the event without working for it.

    Nonetheless, I appreciate that the thought of pvp is there. If devs played the game just to have a better handle of the vibe in game, it may help. Looking at metrics will only do so much. Just a suggestion.
     
  15. Violet Ronso

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    How does having the 1st planned "PVP-ish" event from him a message from the CatNip team saying that this is their vision of PVP? It is one event, a first attempt at tactually bringing some events to both the pvp-ers and the PvE-ers. Why can't it simply a first try with different possible events that work ENTIRELY differently not be an option? How does this represent the teams vision? It is simply a fun event, that is all. I think you need to realise that things are not always one or the other, there can be things inbetween...
     
  16. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    :)
     
  17. Boris Mondragon

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    I will add my two cents on this thread.

    Key word that sticks is meaningful PvP. To me it means being a part of the attempt at world domination or at least regional. I am not here to craft, decorate, craft nor dance, if others enjoy it that is all good.

    I would like for what I and others mentioned before such as castle sieges with rewards to the victors. Why else bother with leveling a character to the unpteenth degree if not to exert that power via battle.

    As far as gear and ransom. A bad mix as I would wear junk to battle to avoid the cost of high ransom so I suggested only body parts to be used to enhance crafting as a reward worth fighting for.

    PvP also carries a responsibility if one wants it to be meaningful. If PvP guilds want to get more people involved then teach others the fine nuances of the PvP art and more will come to learn. Don’t just justify having your top PvPers gank away at those not knowing what they are doing. That I learned in Blood Bay which left Zero Desiré in trying to set up any future grand scale battles. You reap what you sow.

    Additional suggestion for @Chris , @Elgarion :
    Let’s get the crafting involved. Bring out a recipe for working/firing trebuchets/Catapults. Let’s bring another for building battlements. Get the PVE community be part of the creation process and not be left out. In short, give PVP the tools to succeed and attract the ones that left as well as interest others.

    Taming, Bards, LÚA got their moments in the limelight, how about PVP?

    R/Boris/El Pirata/Retired From Promoting PvP Events until it’s worthy and respectable again.
     
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  18. Aeryk

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    I first said this before we even had a scene to log into: Players fighting other players gives us the data we need to balance combat systems. Skill based systems are incredibly difficult to keep balanced so we need a healthy group of people participating.

    One key, as others here have said, is that the combat be meaningful. Folk like kaeshiva outline fantastic ideas to improve this. Meaningful to me also means story. Players can help provide that story. There have been a small handful of amazing events either crafted entirely by players, or initiated by an overarching sequence of GM sponsored events. Those successes may be good cases to go back and review.

    I personally want a way to progress with my characters via PvP starting at level 0. Not just skills, but also virtues. Many of the PvP folk in the community have been amazingly inclusive, but the community can't fix a set of systems that requires thousands of hours grinding PvE scenes to become competitive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  19. Violet Ronso

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    Let's not forget that meaningful can be different for many people as well, as an example, many people talk about 1v1, 2v2 or XvX pvp as a meaningful way, meanwhile I find that PvP must serve some sort of purpose, as either a side effect of hunting for something specific (pvp zone only drops and I get ganked) or for a specific goal (castle sieges to claim that castle and get x benefit/bonus/reward). For me, 1v1 organized pvp is either practice or boring, I dislike that, and if there is ransom, I am simply not interested, meanwhile some people thrive for 1v1 ransom PvP, and that is what is meaningful for them! This is a mighty challenge ahead, but work needs to be done asap and they need to actually spend the time required to put all of these systems in place or else if the game is still up in a year, we will be having the same conversations
     
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  20. Spinok

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    Hey guys nothing personal, but just stop saying in PVP related topic that game has other problems as well.... We know it.
    PVP question would not get big-time for Devs to solve. We need one scene as a training facility, make loot in this zone compared with the best PvE practices (multibox, zone switching, zone jumping). And after this let's check the metrics. We can use Fall, add plenty of Lichlords, and dramatically increase respawn time for all inside the Fall. I think it is the day of Atos time.
    It is so easy to promote PVP in the SOTA nothing close to UI, quest, or crafting system upgrade.

    Then about the balance... What is wrong with the present balance? Pls, guys, it is MMO we cant look on the balance based on 1x1 fights. And mass fights are pretty balanced, ALL classes ingame are good in mass PVP fight. The best example that ANY party of the same builds would be kicked out by a good combination of different builds.

    P.S. And another point - just believe me if the zone would worth farm in the party, we(there is plenty of guys who still visit Fall time to time) will take care to prevent ANY solo farm in it, so you guys who don't want to participate in PVP would make still more in their PvE zones then any player in this new/old PVP zone. As a pro PVE player, I will easily live in a PVP zone and perma fight while I make a bit less than in PVE zone, but when game offers me up to make 6 times less, and wait an hour to get fun or a good fight, it's not impressing me. @Antrax Artek I think you will agree with it, right?
     
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