Novian Orrery Project (The Returnening!)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Cora Cuz'avich, May 3, 2020.

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  1. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Given that:
    1. I have begun playing regularly again
    2. I have a lot of spare time what with current events
    3. I recently came across software that will construct relatively complex gear trains, and output the components to a format I can bring into CAD software
    I've been resurrecting this project. I've got a gear train designed that will replicate the motion of Daedalus and the eight planets, as well as secondary indicators that show moon phase/gate location, and the current month. (I may integrate the month counter into the "main display" but that might over complicate things.) Also planning on a Lost Vale timer, but I have to dig up the info on how that works, I know it was changed from the original 28 hour timer.

    I was double checking my moondial in game to make sure the order of the planets was correct (thanks for ignoring physics and making planets in the middle of the system rocket around forty times faster than inner ones, that totally makes things super easy and not at all a pain in the @$$) and I got to thinking- the sun was fixed on the moondial. My presumption was that the sun orbited Novia just as the planets, constellations, and moon do, as that makes the most sense from a programming perspective. (If Novia actually rotated and the sun was fixed, that would mean a lot of math to make sure the planets revolved correctly in relation to Novia, et cetera.) I suspect the moon dial was an "artistic" representation, which is still technically correct.

    So, the question is, canonically, what is actually moving? I would like the orrery to represent what is supposed to be "actually" happening (regardless of how the devs programmed it to work) while being accurate. That is, if the sun is in fact not revolving around a stationary Novia, I want to show that. If the sun is supposed to be orbiting, though, I want to add it as another movement in the mechanism.

    I also realize that nobody (except maybe @Lord British ) might have an actual answer, but I figured I'd at least check.
     
  2. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Oh, hey... nevermind. The sun is not fixed, the entire outer ring (to which the sun is affixed) is slowly rotating. How did I not notice that?

    Hm. I wonder if I could make mine do that...
     
  3. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    ...and then you go to scenes along the hellfire rift like oracle colossus and both the sun and the moon are in a permanent fixed position...
     
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  4. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Huh. Well, that's dumb. I never noticed that before.
     
  5. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I may have to rethink this. While I certainly can design it this way, there's a problem. While the sun is actually revolving around Novia verrry slowly on the moondial, it is still the fastest thing in the sky. And it's also the furthest thing out from Novia. Probably not a giant issue if I were making this in brass, but I want it to be 3d printable, and so the gears need to be a respectable size so that the wheels with the largest teeth counts don't have teeth too fine. Currently, four rotations of the crank handle equals one day. I would have liked to gone with something more like one turn/two weeks, but that means one turn of the crank would send Indigno whipping around 28 times. The downside of 4 turns/day is that it takes 112 turns to advance the month dial one month. 1344 for a full year. Not great, but I had to compromise somewhere between too slow to see much movement and so fast it falls apart.

    So. At this rate, the sun moves around once for four turns. In brass, with the whole thing being maybe 200mm/8in in diameter, that might not be horrible. But at the size a 3d printed version would likely be (probably between 300 and 400mm) that's a lot of force/movement on that outer ring. Even if it were just the sun on a stem, that's still a lot. I could slow it down more, but then it becomes sort of silly if you want to advance it a full year.

    OTOH, it's not like anybody would print one and actually use it to predict stuff in game, so maybe who cares if it's really slow, as long it looks cool and works?

    Hm.
     
  6. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    (Also, @Elgarion, I wasn't sure where the best place for this thread was in the forums, so I put it in General. If you have a better location, feel free to move it. Not that you need my permission or anything. ;))
     
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  7. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    3D printable? I want one! :D
     
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  8. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    I have to figure that part out. I'm not sure I can distribute legally, even for free. Not that I would charge for the files, just that some people seem to think it's okay to make and distribute stuff on other people's IP if they don't make money on it; that's not how it works. Making is generally okay ( I think there was even a court case involving "fan art" that made a fair use case) but distribution of any kind is usually a no-no. Ideally, I would give the files to Catnip, and they could host them on the Shroud site and do what they wanted with them, but even that has some legal concerns.
     
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  9. Toular

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    They have already made some 3d models available for some armor that are intended for 3d printing. I doubt his would be any different since presumably Catnip owns the intellectual property for the celestial objects in Shroud of the Avatar. If they don't mind making the armor models available it seems likely they would also be ok with the Orrery - assuming the owner of the 3d-printable IT, Cora Cuz'avich makes it available. Of course, I ain't a lawyer, so ...
     
  10. Cora Cuz'avich

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    So, WIP. This is the gear train. Note that it is VERY rough. At this point, all I did was work out the gear trains, without regard to the actual sizes or placement or nesting of gears etc. The "clock hand" indicators represent the moving bodies. The sun is the largest, the moon is the smallest, and the planets are all the ones in between. (The sun is furthest out, so the arm it rides on has to be at the bottom of the group, and extend out long enough that it doesn't interfere with the other bodies. Each indicator going upward is the next planet in order of distance, with the moon the smallest indicator, as it is closest to Novia. The software only had pre-made indicators to use; the only thing I could do is alter the size. In the next day or so I'm going to install OBS so I can record the simulation showing everything actually moving.

    The green bevel gear at the very bottom is what gets attached to the handwheel. The two "offshoot" trains toward the bottom are for the month counter and the lunar phases. I may combine them into one dial, but it may be confusing to look at. I'm leaning toward three separate dials (I'll be adding a Lost Vale timer as well) evenly spaced around the perimeter, as that'll kinda give the look of the "principles" symbol.

    I will likely not be doing the "whole ring with the sun on it moves" idea. I think it'll be a little too rickety, plus I'll still need a stationary ring outside that to show the constellations.

    I had considered moving the month counter to the "main" gear stack, as a small indicator that moves around the outside of the whole thing, as the months also correspond to some of the constellations. But the gearing for a 336:1 ratio is kinda big, and I think it might be easier to see what's what if i move it to its own dial. Also, that three-dial idea. We'll see.

    Next step will be to rebuild this in a configuration that I can maybe actually create IRL. Unfortunately the software does not allow you to edit gears, only replace them. Now that I know all the gear tooth counts, I can figure out the smallest gear, enlarge it to a size I know will print well, and then resize the whole thing accordingly. I also need to change the gear forms and order, the software doesn't always recognize when a gear is being driven rather than driving, and so there's a few cases in there of a small gear trying to turn a large one. Also need to decide what tooth form, but that's probably more than anyone here cares about. I'm learning waaay more about clock making than I expected to.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  11. Cora Cuz'avich

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    The issue isn't with them making it available (free or otherwise) but with other legal obligations. In theory, if I just emailed the files to Chris and said, "hey do what you want with this" and they actually did, I could claim later that we had an agreement for the work, it wasn't for free, they stole it, they need to pay me, etc. That could be avoided with some sort of legal transfer, but odds are good Catnip wouldn't want to bother with it at that point (someone has to draw up that document, and lawyers aren't cheap) and it's safer all around for them to just avoid the whole thing. I could just make it free to anyone who wanted it, and hope Catnip just doesn't care and looks the other way, but there's always the possibility of them coming after me somehow.

    We'll see what happens, I guess. Either way, I'm going to make one for myself, and at least make you all jealous. (Boy, I miss having access to a machine shop. I really want to make one in bronze. It'd cost me a small fortune, but it'd be sooo cool. )
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  12. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Not a huge amount of work in the last two days. Mostly research as to how to arrange everything. Looking at existing orreries, there seem to be two main ways to do it.

    First way is with all the gears arranged around the central column. The way this works is the drive is located under the base, and turns a central axle. The axle runs through a fixed tube, and pokes out the top of the tube a bit. At the top of the axle would be the sun, which rotates. The top gear train (Mercury) is attaches to (and is driven by) the bit of axle that sticks out the top of the tube. The next train (Venus) is connected to the stationary tube, so it is not driven by the axle directly, but can move freely around the tube. One of the gears of the Mercury train meshes with the first gear of the Venus train, which causes it to be driven, and this is repeated all the way down for each planet's gear train.


    [​IMG]




    Pros:
    • All the gears are out where you can see them easily, so it looks cooler to watch everything move.
    • A little easier to construct the central axle
    • Planet arms can use easily made friction clutches to change their position (Like hands on a clock; they turn with the clock mechanism, but if the time is off, you can just push the hand around to where it needs to be without messing with the gears.)
    Cons:
    • Clearance of gears becomes an issue. That is to say, the planets need to be able to clear all the gears above the as they revolve. Not a big issue on "real" orreries, as the planets move slower as they go down the axle, which means the gears get larger as they go down, so you don't have a bigger train in the center of the stack. With Novia, the planets are all over the place, so some trains might get more complex to keep the gears small and out of the way of all the planets
    • If I want to do anything complex at the top of the axle (like the sun ring with the wireframe "cage" you see on the Novian moondial) will be rickety unless I figure something out


    The second type is what I call the "clock style." All the gearing is under the base, with a set of nested hollow axles driving the planets. (Like a clock; the gears are usually all in the case, and two or three nested axles stick out the front, each with a hand mounted to it.


    [​IMG]

    It's a little hard to see, but this is the best image I could find that shows it.


    Pros:
    • Gearing doesn't interfere with movement of planets
    • If I wanted to do the fancy cage thingy, it could ride around supported by the base
    • extraneous dials (moongates, Lost Vale) become much easier to integrate into the design
    Cons:
    • Much more difficult to construct, especially if I wanted it all 3d printed, with a minimum thickness of each axle wall plus some clearance so they could move, the base of the center pillar might be 60mm/2.5in in diameter or more. Plus a bunch of nested printed moving parts may be really hard to pull off with out a lot of tweaks and reprints. Or, I could use brass tubes for the axles, but ideally you would just print all the parts and put them together, not print all the parts then spend a week fabricating the rest of it.
    • All the pretty gears are much more hidden, even if I make the base open
    • Friction clutches would be out, you'd probably have to undo a set screw to loosen a planet arm, move it, then re-tighten the screw.



    So, I'm playing around with a few design ideas. I am leaning heavily toward the "stack" style, as those nesting axles will be really a bear to pull off in 3d printed material.

    One cool thing I saw was from the antikythera mechanism; instead of a pointer that moves around dial with the moon phases, it used a sphere painted half black and half white, which rotated in a socket to show the phase. I like that, but it would be less exact at showing which gate was open, as you'd have to guess the point at which one phase ends and the next begins. But again, its not like anybody would actually use this to determine which gate was open, so cooler looking but slightly harder to read might just win out.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  13. Cora Cuz'avich

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  14. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Hey, I figured how to record stuff.

    The fastest (and also longest) hand is the sun. (Which, of course, makes a full revolution once per day.) Then the planets, and the shortest hand is the moon. The separate hand at the top is the moonphase and the one at the bottom is the month. The center stack will have a fixed ring around the whole thing with the constellations marked out.



     
  15. Cora Cuz'avich

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    The in-game moondial (Clarification: The craftable one, I just realized the ornate/store town size ones are different) is very confusing. It has a spherical "cage" on it, at an angle to the center ring on the dial. My initial thought was that this indicated the horizon, as the planets and everything revolve at an angle to our view. But the cage rotates with the sun/hour ring. If it were representing the horizon, it would be fixed in place. But the constellation ring is fixed, though they revolve through the sky. So I thought a rotating tilted horizon, in conjunction with the fixed constellations, might indicate which constellations are above the horizon. Except for that to be the case, it would have to be rotating once per NB year, not once per day. So, I'm stumped. I'm guessing it's just decorative, and doesn't indicate anything. (@Bowen Bloodgood ? Any idea?)

    You know... it occurs to me the constellation ring may be moving. If it was, it would be the slowest part of the moondial. I'll have to check on it in a few days and see.

    Also, it's almost the end of July in game. So north should be roughly cenetered between Honesty and Ethos. Except it seems to be off a month. Hmm. Maybe SotAwiki is wrong?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  16. Cora Cuz'avich

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    (Hey, didja know New Britannia is in the southern hemisphere?)
     
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  17. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

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    You're not the only one
    Starin' at the sun
     
  18. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Hm. So, the town moondial has a "cage" made of light, which is not tilted, and does not turn. But the constellation ring is tilted. But, it is not on the same plane as the planets.

    Also, it's raining, which is really friggin' annoying right now.
     
  19. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    I did. ;)
     
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  20. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Well, yeah, of course you did. That one was meant for everyone else.
     
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