PVP QUE FEEDBACK

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ShurTugal, Jul 24, 2020.

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  1. ShurTugal

    ShurTugal Avatar

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    So. working towards the pvp que finally. aweseome! Feedback though.... here is what they listed as some basics of it... @Chris @Elgarion The first one at the top that I underlined leaps off the page at me as an absolutely no go. DO NOT ALLOW PLAYERS TO SEE WHO IS QUEING UP FOR PVP PLEASE! I have NEVER seen a game anywhere allow players to see who is queing up for any type of battle be it battlegrounds, raids, operations, you name it. A que is ment to be autonomous. You want to do some pvp or raid or operation but your mates aren't on to do it with you click "join pvp/raid/operations que" and your automatically put on a list to match you up with others. You learn who your fighting with and against once the battle goes live... thanks getting started on this.... @Chris

    • Players will be able to view a list of other players looking for PvP.
    • The list of available queued players will display within brackets relative the player’s level viewing the list.
    • The planned brackets (approximate) will be as follows:
      • 20+ Levels Below
      • 10-20 Levels Below
      • +/- 10 Levels
      • 10-20 Levels Above
      • 20+ Levels Above
    • Players will receive a warning that credit will not be received for any competitions which are 20 levels below their own level.
    • Initial versions will feature a simple “JOIN” button, but later versions will include the following:
      • Map Selection: Players will be able to select from a list of possible maps.
      • Level Limits: Players will be able toggle exclusion from any competitions 20 above or below their level.
      • Competition Type: Players will be able to select whether the fight is to be ranked or practice.
    • When challenging a player, the following dialog boxes will appear:
      • Player acknowledging the challenge will be presented with a dialogue box, “Waiting for player to accept…”
      • Player receiving the acknowledgement will be presented with the dialogue box, “Your challenge has been accepted! Click “Engage” to begin, or click “Retreat” to decline…”
    • When a player accepts the competition by clicking “Engage” in the dialog box, both players will transport to the chosen scene or a random scene if none were chosen. Initially, only a single scene will be available, but more scene options will be added in the future.
    • Competing players will zone to random spawn locations within the selected scene, at which time the battle will begin.
    • The battle scene will continue until one player dies or leaves the scene. Results for each match will be collected to populate win/loss metrics.
    • Once a player leaves, logs out, or dies, both players will zone back to either their previous location or a hub type scene, depending up their previous location.
    • Initially, players will utilize the existing PvP leaderboards, but a robust PvP ranking system will be soon to follow.
    • Some maps may feature timed mechanics which force players into battle such as rising lava or a shrinking death field.

    A well thought out pvp system. maybe ranked and unranked matches. feels like your complicating the process with all the "level requirements" your listing. keep it simple.
    maybe stats that are pvp ONLY that allow you to advance up the pvp teirs etc. some feedback. :)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  2. Oakenhammer

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    The details of the system so far read more like a dueling system than a team/match system, so it makes sense you can see who is available to select your specific opponent to challenge. I'm sure the system will be expanded over time to include something more like the traditional team / objective based PVP systems that include randomized matching like we see in other games.
     
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  3. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Great feed back. But levels could be mis-leading since this game isn't a level based game but skill level based which should matter most. Just wondering on that point you made. Also I like objective based to give many reasons and goals to accomplish and strive for is very important. Story never hurts and details and quests to earn things are very important.

    Edited to add feedback
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  4. ShurTugal

    ShurTugal Avatar

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    yes. his level thing is not well thought out either. Its still an evolving thing in my mind. :) I got triggered on the hole "seeing who was in the que" :)
     
  5. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Please keep the feedback coming, I'll be looking through this next week and will be linking this thread to the team periodically in the weeks ahead for player feedback as its being planned/designed. Please keep things cordial and constructive please.
     
  6. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I have to agree - displaying who is in the match list really only makes sense if you're looking to target someone specific.
    If I'm looking for a bit of fun random match and I see the 'big PvPers in there' my reaction's going to be, yeah, they can all steamroll me, try back later.
    If I don't see them, then well, that will probably happen anyway...and then I'd probably lose interest in queueing for something I have no chance of winning.

    And the level thing, well, I see kitting out low adventure level characters to extreme minmax becoming a thing. Not necessarily a problem, but those people will stampede everyone in their tier. level is not and has never been an adequate measure of character strength in our current system. This sort of gaming the system will make leaderboards meaningless.

    Brackets are also splitting an already thin community, only a part of which has interest in pvp at all, into even thinner slices.

    Most games get around these issues via some sort of normalization of skills/scaling system to put people on (more or less) even ground, at least as much as is possible. Then you throw everyone into the same queue pot and increase the chance of people actually matching up. If relative levels and gear are taken out of the equation, it becomes more about player skill /build/deck and less about whoever's got the silliest gear or who has spent the most hours standing in ERG wins.

    It does sound like this is just for 1v1 matches. Is it just 'fight to the death' or are there other objectives in the scene? Are these planned?
    I mean, if you want to fight someone to the death in a duel somewhere, you can do that now...no queue system needed.
    I'd like to see queues for things like obsidian trial (so you're not stood there for hours, unable to continue doing anything else, waiting for people to show up). I could be mining or whatever or crafting while I wait for the queue to trigger.

    I also think we sorely need PvP that has some sort of a purpose. Most of the PvP we see are established PvPers fighting each other, or big people killing little people who flagged by accident, or are just trying to get their quest done and have no interest in PvP anyway. A ranking system will help, I guess, but what got me out to Obsidian Trials when it was announced was there was a shiny emote I could earn. Of course, dismay followed when I realized I had to be "ultimate victor" to even get that currency so it became a case of hide, let everyone kill each other, and try to take out the last guy. That was super tedious. And once I got it there was never any reason to go back.

    Please remember - any reward mechanism you put in needs to be equally attractive to the losers - or people will simply not bother. Earn some sort of points, currency, whatever, and earn it 5x or 10x faster by winning, but if losing is nothing but a waste of time, people will not keep showing up to lose. This is where battleground type things with ancillary objectives (such as trying to complete a quest type activity while in the 'risk' zone for some sort of daily reward/currency/thing) tend to work well. It gets people into an area where PvP can happen (target rich environment) but people can go out there and accomplish something even if they can't take down the roving zerg forces - they just gotta sneak around them. I like the idea of a queued team event and you could use some sort of algorithm to try and match people by level if scaling isn't possible. (Perhaps a box to not allow pre-made groups to be matched against randoms, to make things more fair to the random group of folks going up against a well oiled machine.)

    I think many are glad to see that PvP is getting some attention, I just think we need to drive it in the right direction. The current implementation of the queue has no appeal to me - I simply don't see the purpose in doing it. I'll never be high on the ranking (I am not built for it, and don't do it often enough), so that is no incentive at all. But I would enjoy some group objective versus games particularly if they were not strictly "deathmatch" style - and if we got whomped baaad, we'd still walk away with a handful of pvp-currency for our time so it at least feels like you accomplished something.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  7. Oakenhammer

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    I can not agree with this more. There are a number of rewards I'd like to obtain from the Obsidian Trials, but I have zero chance to actually obtain them since I'd likely never be the ultimate victor and that is the only way to get medallions. Winning requires a massive amount min/max'ing that just isn't feasible for most people, myself included. I don't mind grinding through losses to obtain what I want, but as it stands now, there is zero incentive to actually participate.

    In WoW, there are PvP world quests that have NPCs with better AI than standard mobs that fill in when no other players are available so that the quest can still be completed. It would be nice to have something like that in SotA, so that we can participate on our schedule. These types of matches wouldn't count for ranking or leaderboard purposes, of course, but would allow us to grind for PvP currencies. It could be as simple as dropping us in an arena with a Cabalist.
     
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  8. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    There a few thing to consider to have this succesful.

    FFA is not fun for a long time and clearly not for everyone. The guy loosing constantly will just stop using that feature. What we need here is a team vs team arena. When i think team vs team arena, i think a 3vs3, 5vs5, 10vs10 etc and additionally some goal to achieve in the arena to make your team wins (this could be different kind of team vs team map).

    I'd use a ELO system for each individual player, hidden from the player, if the player see that number he can try to modify it by changing his behavior just like virtue thats why it must stay hidden.
    Then you just need a match making system to balance the team out (i can make a prototype in about an hour if you want, i made this in the past, will be as good if not better than anything out there)

    The ELO score would need to be reset from time to time like when a contest is done or to start a new season.

    There also a problem that come up with people that actually want to be in team with their party. Thats where i think there should be 2 separated PvP que system, one called "normal", for anyone that want to practice pvp, join with party, etc. And one "ranked" which will modify your ELO score as you play in. Only the ranked one should be rewarding.

    But yeah without arena with team vs team i dont expect a long hype about it.

    This is already alot of work but, if you just make this as fun like i think it could be, the rewards could wait a little bit more. Just saying ;p
     
  9. Sulaene Moon

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    As @kaeshiva said, it sounds like this will be for a very small portion of the community. Especially since the strong pvpers have a chance to que for lower levels, what ever lower levels actually mean. That probably means I wont use it but once just to try it out.

    The other issue I see is Exploiting. What's to say I don't que with an alt to constantly win and get myself higher on a leaderboard? Hopefully there won't be any actual reward involved, because than you're ask for trouble. Perhaps a mechanism that you can't que with someone you had in the past week or so, but since I know a few people who have over a dozen alts this probably won't work either

    To me I would rather see work put into a system that's currently in need to repair or love.
     
  10. oplek

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    Imbalance in the PVP queue should be a given. Knowing that, it should be embraced. Maybe some kind of asymmetrical gameplay.
     
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  11. oplek

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    This would be an opportunity for the devs to do something new, unique, bold, interesting, etc. Everything else in the game is largely knockoff-brand.
     
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  12. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    How will loot work in the new system? Will it be the same as existing PvP or ?
     
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  13. Mylady ‘Gin Gin Darlin

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    Botting too. I agree, can definitely see this being hugely exploited by users multi-boxing with avatars, or friends allowing themselves to be killed repeatedly by friends without putting up a fight.

    There defo needs to be way more thought into preventing exploits if rewards are to be given out after these matches @Elgarion @Chris.

    Also how about some things being temporarily disabled in the players inventory when in the PvP scene that can give too much advantage/op?

    Will teleport scrolls be useable in a PvP scene? What about artifacts?

    You could have a system where all gear is disabled and have specific pvp gear auto equipped to the players toon so it’s purely skill based? When they leave the PvP scene their previous gear is equipped automatically and the PvP scene specific gear is auto removed.

    Also what sort of cover/advantages are given for ranged vs melee combatants?
     
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  14. Echondas

    Echondas Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    This is kinda how Guild Wars 2 worked when I played it - All players entering World vs. World PVP had their gear standardized and skills and stats also - so everyone was basically on an equal playing field, without affecting your gear or anything for PVE.

    This was the only PVP my trammy self felt reasonably comfortable with o_O

    (I am still scarred from the first few UO years when it was a gank and exploit fest and players were rage quitting because of it)
     
  15. DavidDC

    DavidDC Programmer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Its pretty easy to counter the fact that people can use multiple bots. For example, allow only a ELO score of 1100 + or 1200 + to buy certain rewards. Not all the alts are gonna win. Also making the rewards bound to character since its a hard win like a fish trophy. I wouldnt make them tradable, emote for obsidian trial are not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
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  16. Restless

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    Surely you’re joking. You expect people to spend ridiculous amounts of gold on gear every nerf, spend countless hours getting exp and creating unique builds just to have it taken away when it’s needed?

    Only skills are nerfed in obsidian trials and oplis ruins. How often do you go to either for pvp? Just one restriction and everyone is disinterested.

    DC is making some great points for the ELO system. Heritage items feel like a cheap trick. I recently won a heritage from a stream and it feels incredibly hollow. I can’t imagine working hard for something heritage. Account bound upon use seems more reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  17. majoria70

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    OK I just had another thought about the PVP que when someone mentioned two few players on to make dueling pits worthwhile.

    What if to make up for this or to just add variety the team implemented AI cloned pvpers to fill the blanks if no players are in the queue or not enough players in the queue.

    Someone to battle who is indistinguishable from another player. They can make comments etc to be challenging and make the game not leaving blanks about a new system waiting for other players.

    It would be a complete system with players not knowing who they would get to fight an AI clone of another player. So just a thought that could be investigated and further fleshed out.

    Also I've always wanted this game to have an interesting Battleground system implemented instead of all these wave battles being added everyhwhere. One with timed capture battles, being a daily event, quests, rewards, tokens earned to purchase special items. Also AI clones can be scattered throughout.
     
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  18. Ancev

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    I'm not really a fan of ELO rankings or whatever but I do like systems like UO's bounty system where players can see how high their bounty would go up and other players can see it on bounty boards. I proposed systems in the past that could help mitigate a player and his friends from capturing their own bounty. There was a lot more to UO's pvp system than "this player kills that player" .. loot incentive was a big deal. Thieves and risk takers were a part of it too.

    Also I do like PvP kill announcements. It worked well in Shadowbane and encourages more PvP. There should probably be a PvP chat channel and an option to see PvP kill advertisements in game. The PvP kill advertisements from battleground/death match types of scenes might need to be localized? Not sure.

    For what it's worth I posted this concept to the Wishlist forum https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...queuing-tech-grudge-and-greed-scrolls.164425/

    It might be able to tie into the PvP queuing tech or the tech can be expanded to support other types of multiplayer activities.
     
  19. ShurTugal

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    if this is done right, good job attempting to que up with an alt. In many games I have that have ques and limits on how many team members can join in, people attempt to get into the same match by clicking the battle button together in 1,2,3.... it rarely works. Like I said, with a good que sytem, good luck gaming it in that fashion
     
  20. ShurTugal

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    Like I said before, in a "random que" where we can't see who is in it, and where the system is done right, and the matching is random, good luck getting qued into the same match be it botters or the "friends senario" which also sounds to me like a straw man argument...
     
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