Collar Recovery needs some love

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Bridge Troll, Apr 28, 2021.

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  1. Bridge Troll

    Bridge Troll Avatar

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    I cannot tell you how angry I get when I see people in chat explaining how easily you can get to the point in fishing that you have absolutely zero chance of losing your bait with a combination of foods, shrines and gear -- none of which are hard to procure.

    Tamers on the other hand have to invest real time or coin into silver. And a LOT of it. My Collar Recovery is 132. The tooltip states that I have a +210% chance of collar recovery. 210% of what? Zero?

    I put my concerns to the test tonight. I had 37 collars in my pocket and a whole bunch of necklaces I was ok with writing over. Instead of killing the boars and getting good loot, I decided to see how many I could tame (at 150 taming/120 Taming Specialization) with those 37 collars. I netted 10 boars. 10 out of 37 collars netted a beast. I only noted about 10 times that I did not lose a collar on a fail, and I ALWAYS lost a collar on the tame.

    So - what good is Collar Recovery? And can we get the same lovin that you have given to the fishing community? I mean, seriously, we don't have a chance to have collars come back to us where they have a chance to catch bait with each and every toss. And once they have ONE of each bait, they don't need any more!
     
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  2. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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  3. Bridge Troll

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    We don't have gear, shrines or food to help us. I don't see that he is removing those for fishing?
     
  4. Net

    Net Avatar

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    I beg to differ, getting the right gear was quite impossible few releases ago, same for the food). And getting to high enough level is still somewhat challenging.
    Anyway the idea is to remove 100% bait recovery, so I doubt we will see the same thing getting for the collars.

    It would be nice if the numbers in the skill description were actually meaningful though and displayed actual chances you get your collar back if you fail.

    Pretty sure there is more taming gear than fishing gear, though it does not help with collar recovery. And food would be nice addition.
     
  5. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    He's not removing them, and I don't see why he would. I don't think the comparison is particularly reasonable between the two systems (if there is a fault in collar recovery rate then that argument should stand on its own merits) but for anyone interested in the numbers the breakdown is:

    Baked Pacu: 2.5% recovery and made from a rare fish that gives little meat (taxing to procure, lasts 1 hour)
    Town Buff: 8% and readily available (easy to procure)
    Fish Finder Cloak: 12.5% and an extremely rare and coveted item (nearly impossible to procure)
    Epic Pax Ring: 50% epic artifact (500,000gp+ item)
    Bait Recovery Skill: Used to cover the gap to get to 100%, which is no longer possible. lvl 126 without the cloak or Pacu, which is 14.5m Producer XP

    An hour of the Pacu buff costs as much as 10 or more collars, depending where you shop.
    A single bait squid is 10k-40k.
    Blood Leeches are 5k+.
    And those prices are including the fact that people have 100% recovery. In reality pretty much everyone loses bait when a buff falls off, they swap decks and remove their ring, etc. A point of comparison (though again, I think they're dissimilar systems and shouldn't be forced into too much analogy) would be when people complain that pets can be infinitely resurrected from across the zone, and that there is no real threat of losing a tamed pet. In reality, things happen and tamers do lose their pets.

    I do believe the total bait recovery chance should be capped below 100%, but I also think the grass is just seeming greener from the other side. If we call it 3.7 collars per boar, and a collar is 500gp, that's 1850gp per boar in collars, or roughly 16 boars per bait squid? 270 boars per epic pax ring? Depending where you shop is cheaper than a single 1 hour Pacu food buff, and a single Pacu takes much longer to catch (with no meaningful XP reward) than it takes to mine even a few dozen silver ore.

    I'm not saying tamers have it easier, I'm not saying fishers have it easier. I'm an avid fisher who's done effectively zero taming and I think bait should be consumed at a much greater rate. I will say that collar recovery might be low, I'd have to be more informed to say for sure. Just wanted to throw some numbers out there for folks.
     
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  6. Bridge Troll

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    Coswald -- No matter how you slice it - I have high skills in taming and I am getting essentially 25% collar recovery. Capped. I cannot improve it. I am asking for something comparable to what the fishing community got. Why is your 100% protection against loss not being treated with the same disdain as Air Shield's 100% protection against loss? Net - I am not talking about how hard it WAS to get the various bonuses, although I will state that I have many pax rings and I never fish, so that feels a little fishy to me. NOW it is a daily reward. Also, Coswald, where are you buying collars for 500 gold? I think 800 - 1300 is more what I see on vendors.

    We should at least be honest in the comparison:
    Baked Pacu equivalent for tamers: 0% recovery and not available at all.
    Town Buff equivalent for tamers: none available (cannot procure)
    Fish Finder Cloak equivalent for tamers: 0% and not at all available (actually impossible to procure)
    Epic Pax Ring equivalent for tamers: 0% epic non-existent artifact (spend all you want - it aint there)
    Bait Recovery Skill equivalent : ?? 25% ish at level 132??? <<< This is part of the unequal chance to save money and time ^^^^ All that is an even larger part of the equation.

    I would argue that it is less than 25% because I am guaranteed to lose a collar upon a successful tame - Where in fishing are you GUARANTEED to lose your bait.
     
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  7. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    If it's a hard cap then I agree that should indeed be changed, and my point is very much that any way you slice it, the numbers for collar recovery are the same. That's why I said it would be more beneficial to appeal directly to those numbers rather than to make comparisons to dissimilar systems. 100% rates and divide by zero errors are under the microscope at the moment (air shield, cast time, draw speed, etc) and I think that is a good thing. There was no dishonesty in my comparison, I was just giving information on the economics of 100% bait recovery. I think the comparison is silly.

    If you're asking for a means of getting 100% collar recovery I think that's also very silly, especially if you don't even want a collar being used on a creature you tame. Consumables should not be able to hit a 0% chance to consume in my opinion, it defeats the purpose. If you're saying bait recovery should be capped under 100% by removing the things mentioned above I think that's equally silly. It should be capped under 100%, but there's no reason to remove those things to do it.

    I don't buy collars for 500 gold, and really I don't buy them at all, as I don't tame. I do, however, sell them for under 500 gold.
     
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  8. Bridge Troll

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    My reason for comparing the two is the obvious disparity. I am 132 points in and losing very expensive, painful to make collars. And people with much less skill are able to get to a condition of never risking loss in fishing. I do love you for being so clear in your explanations, truly. No hard feelings here, and I agree both need to be fixed. To make collars we need to use four different craft stations and two different types of ingots. It is not a small effort. Also, our collars do not add anything to the percent chance to tame. Nothing.

    Pop over to fishing and you can catch your bait, the bait can improve your chances of catching large reward, and you can get to a point where it is risk free to use. Huge disparity and I do not feel bad for pointing it out. To me it is an obvious comparison and it easily shows options that the dev team could use to improve the quality of life of the taming community, which is not a small one any more.
     
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  9. Coswald_Dirthmire

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    My view is that there's a disparity between the water flow in a shower and a sink, because they're dissimilar items with superficial similarities. You say people "with much less skill", but again you're comparing adventuring to crafting XP. I'm a crafter, that is my first love and I spend far more time grinding crafting XP than adventuring XP. I have about 6x as much adventuring XP as I do crafting XP. They're different things.

    I'm with you on looking at collar recovery rates, I think pointing out the use of multiple tables as you do, and focusing strictly on the cost for the collars themselves is the best way. (And I suppose I must cheekily mention that lava lures similarly take ingots and multiple tables, 3 though instead of 4).

    And of course no hard feelings, who could dislike the BT? :)
     
  10. Bridge Troll

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    Again, this misses the point - you only need to craft ONE because the game gives so many methods to retain that one. I typically carry 40 or more collars at a time. It takes quite a while to craft our supply. And we not only risk losing them, upon tame we are guaranteed to lose it.
     
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  11. Brent S

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    As a non tamer (or fisher for that matter) I have no clue: How much do taming collars cost if you buy them from player vendors?
     
  12. jrs99

    jrs99 Bug Hunter

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    Taming collars really aren't that hard to make or gather resources for.
    Catching a bait squid is pretty rare.
     
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  13. Bridge Troll

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    It can vary a lot because sometimes they fall as loot to a non-tamer and they sell cheaply. I got one for 100 gold today. 500 is likely a fair price, most that make them to sell sell them for 800 - 1300.
     
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  14. jrs99

    jrs99 Bug Hunter

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    I'm a tamer and they drop pretty regularly in Tartarus.
    I don't tame things as i'd rather just buy pets. I just sent ya the 41 collars I had laying around.

    Bottom line is complain about collar recovery all you want but just leave fishers out of this.
    It's so apples to oranges it ain't funny.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  15. Bridge Troll

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    Thanks for free collars. Now what will you do for all the other tamer.

    Fishing has a protection against loss that tamer do not get. I am sorry if you don't want sunlight thrown on that. But again, I would ask, why is it ok to rail against air shield folks that have used all advantages to become immune to loss, but somehow it is wrong to point out the other place in the game where that is rampant?

    Another thing. You guys blow my mind time and time again. Not once have I called on a nerf of any kind for fishing. I pointed out examples of what had been done for fishing and asked that similar options be made available for tamers. Why the grief? I can afford to make my own collars, I am speaking out for a) those who can't, and b) those who may not be at endgame taming yet, that are still hopeful that pouring tend of millions of exp into collar recovery will translate to a resolution for the collars being eaten.

    Send me all the free stuff you want, but stop acting like I'm attacking you. I really could care less what they do to fishing; I rarely partake.
     
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  16. jrs99

    jrs99 Bug Hunter

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    Quit comparing taming to fishing!
    one is one of the most powerful skill trees in the game. The other is just fishing.
    Dude, you're getting to the point of whining because fishers have something that you don't. The two DO NOT compare...

    One more time....
    The two DO NOT compare.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  17. Bridge Troll

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    They do compare because they both involve consumables. I want some of the same things done to help collar recovery - look - I get it - you vote no. Go find another thread to play in.
     
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  18. jrs99

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    Nope! Still don't compare

    Seriously, I'm done with your thread Troll. You want collar recovery changed and that's fine but your comparing it to fishing is just silly.

    I'd trade you 100 collars for 1 bait squid
     
  19. FBohler

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    Stop feeding the Troll, Troll.
    :rolleyes::p
     
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  20. Coswald_Dirthmire

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    Hehe, the irony is that I *do* think us fishers should get a nerf. I would like to see the rare bait drops or their effects be increased (squid are rare enough to cost 10k-40k each, imagine if they only lasted 2-5 casts), but I do think no chance-to-consume should reach 0%.

    It's just that I think you can make a much stronger argument for increasing collar recovery if you focus on the problems it causes. "This is why collar recovery is a flawed system" will likely get more traction than "fishers have a toy, it's not fair, I want one too".
     
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