How did this game end up so different from Ultima Online

Discussion in 'New Player Welcome' started by mirkxero, Oct 5, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mirkxero

    mirkxero Avatar

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    New player here. Started playing this a couple weeks ago.
    Long time player of Ultima Online, 1997 until current, off and on.

    I guess my expectation was that the game would be very similar to UO.
    There are some similarities, but there are significant differences as well.

    Levels? Exp pools? Zones? Very few dropped useful items? No transportation spells or runes only scrolls?
    No moongates? The instancing and zones give the game a completely different feel.


    I wish it were more like UO. The perfect game for me would be to take UO world and gameplay and drop this skin on it. Maybe a copyright issue? but not enough nostalgia from UO to be recognizable.

    Curious how others see it.
     
  2. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

    Messages:
    7,944
    Likes Received:
    9,015
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Hemut
    Welcome! As a new player, you won't really be seeing much of the "Big Picture" of the game. That will take you a while....

    I can name off a few things this game does actually do better than the comparable Free to Play option currently in Ultima Online

    All of the Chapter 1 content is completely free to play, which includes:
    1. Any player can own properties and place houses (or not) on them. Each property can have a basement and a dungeon.
    2. Any player can place vendors on any properties they own.
    3. You aren't limited to only a bank for storage because you can store significant amounts of items in chests on your properties, and in basements and dungeons.
    4. Players are given 1 FREE taxed no trade player owned town Row and Village lot deeds, per account.

    You cant do any of the above in Ultima Online's free to play option. But you can here.

    For the rest of you statements:
    Skills have levels. There is a cap of level 200, but the amount of xp required to reach that is basically impossible to achieve. After level 100 the skills require massive amounts of xp to level them further.

    We have 2 XP pools, Adventure and Crafting. It's actually quite simple to understand once you get the basics down: Kill creatures, this gives Adventure XP. Harvest, Skin or Mine gives Crafting XP.

    There's a lot of useful dropped items, they just don't drop as often. Like for example the various Artifacts, Supply Bundles etc...

    There are no transportation spells or rune to travel to other areas. Just scrolls.

    We can't have Moongates™ as that is the intellectual property of EA. We DO have the Lunar Rift. Go to the town of Owls Head, and walk in and look to your left.....

    Most Adventure Areas (zones) can be entered solo, open or in a party. Which ever way you want to play.

    Do feel free to ask us any questions about the game. Most all the people here are very helpful and are happy to help you out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    vulcanjedi, Lord Stein, Aeryk and 5 others like this.
  3. Tazar

    Tazar Avatar

    Messages:
    770
    Likes Received:
    1,818
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dallas Texas
    Keep in mind that Sota was to be the spiritual successor of Ultima - not necessarily Ultima Online. The early games all had zones - each town was a zone you entered - each monster roaming the overland map sucked you into a zone for a combat sequence, etc. While the zones might have been a way to make Unity more workable with it given this started when Unity was much younger, it also called back to the nostalgia of some of those early games.
     
  4. Bridge Troll

    Bridge Troll Avatar

    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    841
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Location:
    New World
    I ain't doggin - this is different. But I don't understand what is lacking when people say this isn't like old UO (aside from the lack of threat from other players). Could you tell me what it is that you expect that is missing? UO was an open world with baddies for us to kill. We made the stories that filled that world. Don't you have the same thing here? I have things I think are negative about the game but I won't say them because I don't want to influence you, but what do you think is missing? I know we don't have rune books, I miss them, but travel seems to be decent in-game. I guess one thing we are definitely missing is the ability to give people a rune that brings to our own front door/shop. As for loot, loot kinda is meh, but I don't remember UO being any kinder. Just trying to figure out what is missing... my best friend left and said, "there is no game there" with no other explanation, so these statements really baffle me, and I want to understand and be a catalyst for fixing if I can.
     
  5. Dinsoo

    Dinsoo Avatar

    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    2,673
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    I think @Tazar said it best. Read their comment (right above yours)
     
    Cordelayne likes this.
  6. craftymethod

    craftymethod Avatar

    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As to Tazar's comment, makes me wonder why reinventing the wheel was needed especially with UO's success with an online version of an Ultima game. Thats asking for lightning to strike twice.

    Star Citizen seems to be inspired more game systems wise by UO than Sota. Similarities are uncanny.
    Even its name is almost a homage :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
    FBohler and Aeryk like this.
  7. Last Trinsic Defender

    Last Trinsic Defender Avatar

    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    559
    Trophy Points:
    43
    You have moongates here and the scrolls are targetable and work like the old runes at least for zones (not directly to points). The zones are like the old dungeons (the dungeons had levels which worked like the zones here). You can enter the zones in Sota but you don't need to. The instancing spares us some lagg - I would say that is good in that case. On the other hand you can only join a battle if you are in the group - well, that's not that good ^^. You had no levels in UO and it the same here - that's one of the real good points in Sota like in UO. Skills are still an interesting concept (like the difference between RuneQuest and D&D). Dropped good gear? Well - UO didn't drop good items either but it has been promised here for some years now. Don't think this will happen in the near future. The concept of crafting and good loot doesn't go well together. *shrugs* Learned to live with it.
     
  8. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    I get what you are saying about UO. But SOTA has attracted far more of my time and money than UO ever did.

    Sometimes the best advice is: Stop to smell the roses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  9. Last Trinsic Defender

    Last Trinsic Defender Avatar

    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    559
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I think that looks bad for SOTA.
    This page says the following: (Source: https://mmo-population.com/r/ultimaonline/)
    Ultima Online 300k+ subscribed (8,7k on a daily base)

    And not to forget: it is 23yrs old ...
     
    FBohler likes this.
  10. craftymethod

    craftymethod Avatar

    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hopefully when some ideas are implemented around factions and incentives to flag PVP maybe even with something like a 'knock out/over" command for a little civil disobedience / prisons and guards that serve a role... things will even up the more grannular the novian world becomes.
     
    FBohler likes this.
  11. Ancev

    Ancev Avatar

    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    1,956
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I worked on a (probably unworkable) skill system proposal for a few weeks where players would have 2 character sheets/paperdolls and you could flip back and forth from PvE to PvP and you'd have 2 sets of gear.. it would create 2 economies and there would be PvE and PvP versions of artifacts and gear.

    Then we duplicate all of the combat related skills into a PvP tab in the Skills window, and start the PvP skills at zero. All of the accumulated adventure xp remains the same for PvE skills. This essentially creates 2 scales for damage, and it allows PvE have huge damage numbers but on the PvP side, things are rebalanced to take the majority of one hit kills out of the game, probably larger hit point pools, etc. lulz but then you end up with 2 health bars I guess.. and that wouldn't work very well because you end up with mobs doing damage to one health bar, and players doing damage to another health bar.. and I guess it would just be confusing.

    I just like the idea of it, where PvE goes on one path which allows the PvE damage scale to expand, and PvP damage scale is focused more on balance - and the 2 scales of damage don't mingle with each other. So you can make changes to PvP skills and it wont affect PvE skills and I think this would make a lot of people happy.

    So then on the PvP side of things, you allow players to get to 100 in their duplicated PvP skills simply by using a use based system with hidden xp. You can become 'proficient' in the PvP skills by sparring with your friends, dueling other players or general PvP in any location in the game, but in order to raise them beyond 100, you must be in the PvP zones. (Blood Bay, Brave Coast, the various Ruins, Shardfalls, etc - not sure about OT)

    You just use the skills and you can become proficient in them to 100. But in order to get higher than that, you need to find 'skill glyphs' or obsidian glyphs, etc - and these glyphs, which are items typically found in monster loot, increase your skill caps in PvP. In PvE, the skill glyphs increase your current skill level.

    There are are also Skill Glyph dropper mobs, which are unique named mobs that aren't too difficult to kill but they are camped and sought after by players.

    A rogue type/bandit mob from the red sash bandits might be a dropper for a certain subterfuge skill, and he might spawn every few hours.. and when you loot the mob you might find a skill glyph of silent movement .74 .. for PvE players, this increases your silent movement skill by .74 of one point. For PvP players it increases your silent movement skill cap by that much. Higher level Skill Glyph dropper/boss mobs drop higher level skill glyphs. Your current skill level in a spell or skill may determine how much XP/skill gain is applied by Skill Glyphs. PvP skill glyphs are found in PvE zones, the PvP version is found in PvP zones.

    For PvP I was thinking there would be 3 primary tiers of skills:

    Proficient: 100
    Secondary: 125 (skill glyphs to increase skill cap)
    Prestige: 160 (skill glyphs, specialization only)

    Skill glyphs gives you a better reason to grind mobs without directly adding gold to loot tables.

    Yes, UO did have better loot tbh - a lich would give me some regs, scrolls, about 100-500g and sometimes a magic weapon, lich lords gave more - depends on which era you played in I guess - just killed a 12,000 hitpoint mob recently in SOTA and got SIXTEEN GOLD and that's been a consistent experience playing this game. Doesn't feel rewarding. Also the mushrooms in mysterious swamp don't give raw materials and that doesn't feel rewarding either. Gaining XP ends up being the reward, and you can end up killing several of the mobs over and over and it just feels.. meh. Large cool looking mushroom mobs, and nothing on them.

    In order to make this work with the Deck system, I'd guess you would need to have the same skills/spells available for PvE and PvP so that when a skill is assigned in the deck it makes sense. I'm not sure how you'd do it with unique PvE and PvP skills unless you allowed players to make PvE and PvP specific decks. But because there would be 2 sets of damage, PvE and PvP - the skills would simply function differently against PvE mobs and PvP players - because there is a PvE and PvP version of the skill.

    It would be nice if you could include - and = keys to make the decks more versatile, so you could use 1234567890-= for 12 total slots.

    Another idea I had to allow players to have more locked skills is to have a separate window detached from the deck system that I call the 'skill space' you could drag skills into this window and they would be locked, similar to dragging skills on the game screen in other MMO's. Each skill you put into the skill space window subtracts a percentage of your focus pool in order to maintain them.

    We can cap skills at 100 in PvP zones, but I think the lootable Skill Glyphs would make things more interesting and create more purpose for grinding mobs. This also creates reasons for guilds to fight over zones in the game in PvP.

    Also, I thought these Skill Glyph droppers (unique named mobs) could occasionally spawn in Player Dungeons. And I would add another concept called Fetishes - which are also items you find in the loot system, these are items that you can use to cause a spawner to activate immediately. Sometimes they might spawn one mob based on the fetish type, or sometimes it might spawn something much worse. (group of mobs, higher level version of the same mob, etc)

    I think implementing some of the above concepts would be different enough to make the game feel more like UO, while still being SOTA. Just not sure how to make the PvP skill system concept workable, perhaps there is a better way.. but allowing players to gain skills specifically in PvP zones would populate those areas of the game and encourage players to live there. Oh yeah, and I figured there would be PvP crafting skills too, with unique harvestable resources that are harvested in the PvP zones which are required to make PvP specific gear - and this would allow the devs to make use of the unique characteristics of the shardfalls and ruins throughout the game. The resources would only be used to craft PvP gear.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  12. mirkxero

    mirkxero Avatar

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I stopped playing not long after this original post. Still sad that they didnt just strip away all the names and lore and copyrighted material and use the same skill system, housing system, combat, crafting that so many people loved in Ultima Online. That is essentially what Camelot Unchained is doing regarding Dark Age of Camelot.

    Levels werent needed in UO, no need to consider npc difficulty. There was not an overworld map and adventuring maps, it was all one big seamless world. Even expansions were accessed instantly through moongates.

    Even today I would be more likely to go back and play UO than I would Sota, but it looks like the course is set and wont change here.
     
    FBohler likes this.
  13. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    Yes, this is not UO :) There's just allot of us from UO, because just as with UO, UO and SOTA were developed in the spirit of Ultima, and Ultima isn't UO either, nore is it SOTA, yet they are both in it's spirit, yet not in it's structure.
    ~Time Lord~
     
  14. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    24,869
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Well who says you can't experience other games. I was a huge fan of UO and fought here for more of UO likeness here but due to a variety of types of players and their differences in feedback being partly responsible for how this game evolved we have what you see well or don't see if you don't give it a chance. There are many unseens.

    As one who fought for rune books and easier travel I tell you while we can't Change that sadly we don't have a seamless world, teleport to zone scrolls do mark places you've visited and when unencumbered they do show all scenes you've visited with descriptions of each and these are searchable.

    Just place on your non combat bar to click on.

    We also have a mail system, a music system for group and solo play, a dungeon creation system, a dye system even for furniture, a looking for group system, and one of the best housing and land decorating systems available in any game, and the best part is devs are still adding to the game from feedback.

    I've been here since 2013 fighting for additions I personally feel are important to the game we have already . It doesn't mean I don't in between play on another game or try any other games. I just finished Die Young which was wonderful not the prologue version tho.

    Anyway we have a small team of dedicated devs who still care about this game and are willing to keep tweaking it and adding to it as long as the players allow that and help support the process.

    I personally do care about this game and keep a subscription going to help support it. I am Majoria in game if you ever decide to know more about the game I would be happy to talk to you. Maybe in the future you can try again. It is my virtual home but not all that I am. I still want to know what's out there and I want this game to achieve its potential.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2021
    Time Lord likes this.
  15. mirkxero

    mirkxero Avatar

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I think this conversation is mostly pointless but in case it matters at all I will offer my perspective. Most of my issues are with inexplicable design decisions that vary significantly from what was so successful in Ultima Online and probably will never change.

    Issues
    1) The game is the least intuitive game ive ever played, you are lost from the moment you logon. I wandered around the starting zone for hours before accidentally stumbling into a way to go elsewhere.
    2) Ultima online was great because everything was based on skills which could be changed, levels were unnecessary, disappointing that they were included here and they dont have any meaning that I could see.
    3) Where did the crazy system of gaining experience and spending it to raise skills come from? I spent most of my time in Sota standing in a town spamming skills to reach new skill levels. In UO my skills only raised adventuring, in real time and experience was all hidden if it applied.
    4) The overworld map, its weird, confusing and immersion killing for me. The world feels disjointed.
    5) NPC drops, I really only ever saw crafting materials/reagents and junk drop in my time in sota. Where is the rare super equipment, treasure maps, exciting items that make adventuring fun?
    6) Card decks for skill use? - complex, never did understand it and dont today

    Unknown
    1)Crafting, I didnt try it, it was great in UO with clear tiers of materials, skill requirements, bulk order deeds
    2) High end game play, didnt make it

    Positive
    1) Housing - I did not own a house but it appeared to be what I would expect from a 3d version of UO with open world housing. Maybe some tweaks to allow housing to be built anywhere it would fit like it was in UO.
    2) Combat while not really impressive was ok and understandable
    3) Community is very mature and helpful
     
    FBohler likes this.
  16. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    24,869
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Thank you for your generosity. I do understand your disappointment that this game wasn't what you originally wished for and yes many things are confusing with little in game information about the game systems making it difficult to figure out.

    I really would love a knowledge journal you could open up that includes quests and explains systems and logs game and quest progression and has a list of achievements we could accomplish.

    None of that is impossible but 'when' or 'if' has always been the question here but some of us here still do care and try. Best wishes to you in all your journeys where ever that leads you.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  17. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    5,108
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Have you given the game a 2nd try recently? The beginner experience is much smoother, and gives you a clear path on where to go as you speak with Quest NPCs, which lead you from one to the other.

    Not sure what you mean here? Skills have levels in UO, I distinctly recall trying to push my characters to have 100-120 in the select few skills I had to chose for each character. The biggest difference in Shroud is you can learn them all, but are limited in their use due to the decks and gear, which means you need to chose which ones you will use in each deck.

    You can do the same thing you did in UO if you want. Most players have become min-maxers of the pool system, but from my experience in UO, all I had to do was sit in an area and spam skills/spells. As long as I failed, they trained up. It's all a matter of how you decide to play, but both game offer both experiences, either sit in place and train, or go out and adventure, the skills will train as you go. (Actually Shroud forces you to go out so you can gain the experience, then you spend it, UO allowed you to GM skills without ever leaving your house!)

    I agree with this, but as others said, this is more like the original Ultimas and not Ultima Online.

    The loot has been worked on a lot, from artifacts, to decorations, to rares, to recipes, with all the crafting materials, equipment to salvage and other stuff along the way. Treasure maps are something they are working on though, so there will be new stuff as time goes by!

    Hey, it took me nearly 2 years to actually understand this "deck" system, until you are ready to learn it (many teachers such as myself, are out there ready to help you learn!) You can still use the normal skills on a hotbar system we are used to seeing from other games! It's confusing, but it is such a gamechanger once you learn how to use it!

    Crafting is more for the player economy (and most monthly updates push our systems further in this direction). There are no BODs, so that's a clear con, I would love to see a similar system added some day.

    Depends on what you consider high end gameplay, but there are many things that can fit multiple playstyles. They recently added a huge boss that takes planning and a huge group, and there are multiple scenes that are way too hard for the average player to do solo!


    All in all, I'm not pushing you to try again, but I feel like many things changed since the last time you did, and it might be worth giving it another go!

    If you do and need any help, I am always happy to assist!
     
    Time Lord, Cordelayne and majoria70 like this.
  18. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    5,676
    Likes Received:
    11,810
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Dara Brae
    I stopped playing UO 2 years ago due to SotA. This after playing UO for 21 years. For me, SotA has the best parts of UO that I loved ( adventure, TRAMMEL, castles, player owned towns, puzzles, skill level building, TAMING, BARD).
     
    grendal1971, Elwyn, Time Lord and 3 others like this.
  19. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    5,108
    Trophy Points:
    153
    You forgot to mention that Shroud has me! UO doesn't, that's a big win! :D (right?:oops: :p)
     
    Elwyn, Time Lord, Anpu and 4 others like this.
  20. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    5,676
    Likes Received:
    11,810
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Dara Brae
    Yes. And we have you! :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.