Survivorship bias

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oplek, Nov 1, 2021.

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  1. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    @Chris

    You mention in your stream what when it comes to improving PVP, that you're going to listen to long-term smart people who are interested in PVP.

    Make sure you account for survivorship bias. Those people may in fact have the wrong perspective. Seek out a fresh external perspective as well.
     
  2. Burzmali

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    Not bad advice for the game in general, unless you think fishing is that killer app the gaming public has been demanding over the last few years.
     
  3. FBohler

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    The worst thing that can happen is he picking a bunch of white knights who never criticize his moves no matter what. That's not only survivorship bias, that's a potential echo chamber.
     
  4. redfish

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    Nobody should really be making this personal and about Chris. Ultimately, it was always the dev teams decision on what to do with the game, so yea, its completely their choice on how to handle it, and all people can do is give constructive input.

    My view is that what a lot of players wanted was the virtual world approach, its what people expect from an RPG and particularly from Ultima. What that ultimately requires in my perspective is that you design an activity to not just be fun for a single group of people that are interested in it, but for everyone in the game whether they're interested it in it or not.

    That also means making the activity relevant to everyone in the game, even if they aren't necessarily interested in it. The relevance of the activity draws people in, and because the activity is designed for everyone, most people will like it, even if they don't always participate in it.

    Many of the design ideas at the Kickstarter stage were like that IMO. For different reasons a lot of the more recent design decisions have turned away from the Kickstarter approach.
    I don't agree with those changes but there's not much I can do to change the devs' minds at this point.

    But I'd still say IMO if the goal is to attract the most people they have to make it for the most number of people. If they want to make it for only people interested, they can do that, but it will always have a smaller number of people participating.
     
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  5. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I am no White Knight but have been here since the beginning. I put forward a lot of stuff I think is missing all the time. I do think that PVP could be fantastic in this game. From my prospective I have been pushing for a while on Faction systems coming from DAOC, WOW, Rift and other games where I pvped a lot which most those games had were min 2 factions and more. I think there needs to be objectives to fight for. just flat out open pvp is ok but with no drive for a reason too why do it is my perspective. I also think the guild war system needs to be fixed so that only those in the guilds are pvp to each other not to all. if I want to have a fun fight with my guild vs another I dont want the pvp elites to come running in guns blazing.

    If they put in some other fun elements like POT capture the flags DS/LB banner with counter and or things that announce for score keeping that would also be awesome.

    Pretty much anything they can do for PVP in any manner would be better than it is now imo. The balance they are doing for pvp is a right start imo.

    but rewards are important and for some, a reason to pvp is important... give me something to fight for and I will gladly flag for it :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  6. Brass Knuckles

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    I remember talking to Chris several times while bloodbay was being made and implemented. He told me that it would be like Arathi Basen in wow. They spent many months on the making of (and this was when we had a full staff of dev artists etc). I know you see what all that investment in time/resources got us. probably the lamest pvp result in the history of pvp results.

    Also prior to BB many of us pushed very hard for a faction system akin to what we had in UO and this prompted the Bloodbay concept. It’s my belief if they ever want pvp to be a real thing they need out side people to implement it. They need talent who specializes and understands what makes pvp work.

    Pvp is doomed in sota tbh the saying “Been there done that got the T-shirt” correctly identifies the situation here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  7. Adam Crow

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    I wouldn't even consider that pvp really. It's really just a big player owned town that has mobs in it. They may have spent a lot of time on creating that island and it's contents, but they didn't really spend any time on pvp content or making it meaningful. We have yet to really see them follow through with anything pvp related. I would say the obsidian trials was the closest thing to an actual attempt at some pvp, but we know how that worked out. And I honestly don't think a whole lot of time or effort went into the obsidian trials, but maybe I'm wrong. Personally, Im still waiting for them to at least make a solid attempt at some meaningful pvp. I don't care where it comes from at this point, I just hope it's well thought out and actually makes players that are interested in pvp, excited to get involved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
  8. redfish

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    I think a lot of people may only be motivated some type of reward, but if its not something they really want, and its not something they can't get some other way, most are not going to consider it an adequate incentive to participate. They'll either skip getting it, or get it the other way, and then the only people who will participate is the same people who would participate in PvP anyway without rewards -- because they like PvP.

    That's an example of what I mean by making PvP relevant to people -- just any reward isn't going to make it worth it.

    A reward also obviously doesn't necessarily mean an item of value -- just anything that makes it worthwhile for them to get involved.
     
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  9. Eveara

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    I would love to see anything PvP that'd be DAoC-inspired!

    Another (completely different) system that could be drawn inspiration from: the 'Olympiad Games' of Lineage II. It was basically a 1v1 monthly PvP tournament. To participate, all you had to do was having reached a certain lvl, and talking to a NPC to sign up.

    Then, you became able to take part in 1v1 fights, randomly matched between enrolled players, during specific windows of time (week-ends only, 8PM to midnight server time, if memory serves) – I won't go into details (seems unnecessary at the moment), but if anyone needs more info about this, I'd be happy to elaborate.

    Each victory would earn you points, and at the end of the month, points were tallied to elect a Champion (one by class, but SotA has no classes, so I guess for us 'There [could] Be Only One' (*/cast Lightning Storm*).

    The benefits of being a Champion:
    - a weapon with unique stats and a unique appearance (lasting 30 days) => 'unique stats' wouldn't work for SotA though, but the 'unique appearance' would make a nice incentive for some PvPers,
    - a luminous aura for your character (lasting 30 days),
    - a reward given in a specific currency (the amount awarded depended on your monthly score) and access to a Champion shop were you could spend this reward buying consumables (mainly stuff to enchant your skills and your gear, so not applicable in SotA).

    I'm well aware this is very far from a 3-factions PvP system with interesting stakes for everyone... but consider it merely a source of inspiration, nothing more. After all, we have monthly contests for anglers, for screenshoters (... is that a word? :/), so why not a monthly SotA 1v1 Champion?

    (I apologize if my phrasing does not make sense at times.)

    Here's a screenshot of the Champion luminous aura (sorry, couldn't find one where it's more visible):
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    Brass I think its not doomed and that they are finally looking at it from a larger picture now and ready to move forward on making it finally happen. They know that there is a large group of people that would play this game if it had a real pvp system with real reasons to fight on a larger scale than what it is now. Now well fun here and there is fine, but there is nothing to drive most players to want to flag. with Factions we get wars, skirmishes, teams etc... which allows for so much more.

    -Faction controlled zones
    -Faction Buffs based on Controlled zone/tower/castle etc....
    -Group vs group stuff
    - Real guild vs guild. (currently the system does not work for guild vs guild only but rather flags guild pvp to all which is why faction systems are needed to make guild factions, Realm factions etc.. to build the base for all of it)
    -Faction merchants for unique patterns. trade and no trade

    This extends beyond pvp to pve as well. allowing possible factions for kobold, elves, down to clans for barbarians to mean more than just a name. it opens up ability for you to gain faction with specific mobs. turn k'rul merchants into kobolds faction merchants.. if you have high enough faction you could use those merchants etc... for balance so you can't have all you have mob vs mob factions so you gain one, loose others. you than can add a con system allowing hostiles to become neutral for those with high enough faction.

    you pretty much can see where this can all go. it takes what we have now and allows for every scenario in the end. That is a much bigger picture of what could be.

    Do I think they can pull it off yes in time. That is the only part that is slow is time because of number of resources to get it there.

    this is just my own thoughts on what I perceive as possible with what they are presenting as the idea.
     
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  11. Violet Ronso

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    Yeah, but hasn't this been the same picture we've had for the past 5+ years? In all those years, the two things that got my attention in terms of changes is the level caps, which helped level the playing field, and the very recent gear scaling (or whatever it's called in the patch notes), which if you pair both together could really bring us back to a skill based system.

    Apart from that, not much has progressed for PvP, there is still no rewards, still no incentive, still no reason outside of getting a skull. Discussions on faction systems and what not have happened in the past by the devs with little to no follow-up, where is the queue system that was talked so much during the days Fzol and the House of Mangar roamed our lands?

    I don't want to sound pessimistic, but let's be honest, until I see actual progress, I have very little hope for PvP in Shroud.
     
  12. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    You are right though way back factions were talked about long long ago... as well castle siege system, and Queue system... some we had even been teased on but never seen it since.
    My guess there was missing stuff needed to complete these projects and they were shelved until that unlaying stuff happens. I think we are at that point now were the stuff is starting to happen. They pretty much told us that the rewards are not there and that they need something to fill that to make it worth while beyond just being pk for fun.

    Agree, when its here it will be until than its still not :)
     
  13. Anpu

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    If I’m recalling correctly, I remember they added the Obsidian Trials as the tech for that is something needed for Castle Sieges and possibly other pvp areas. But still need a more in depth Faction System too.

    But next year we will possibly get another vision post and see perhaps if such systems might be in the coming year (or not).
     
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  14. Time Lord

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    Untill it's a "Knight's Tale" traveling champion competition or a 100 player blood bath, I am interested for those that are interested, one I would be betting on while the other is where I would participate.
    Both SOTA historically, always seem somewhat of out of reach.
    [​IMG]

    In SOTA, time mends all things yet the crowd will always cry out for more o_O~TL~
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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