The game feels incomplete.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by oplek, Jul 9, 2022.

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  1. Rustford

    Rustford Avatar

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    I'll toss in my 2 cents as a new-ish player.

    Some of the biggest 'disappointments' are in parts of the game that feel incomplete.
    • There's plenty of scenes that exist seemingly just to exist, especially in the tier 2-5 range. No quests, no NPCs other than monsters, but fully fleshed out and designed zones. I've been to a lot of them and it's rather confusing to put it mildly. These would benefit greatly from a difficulty bump to tier 6-8 where there's a major hole, and some quests. I can't remember which scene it was exactly, but it was somewhere near the Vertas area with satyrs and caged prisoners and made me think of all the effort from someone that went into making the zone just for it to go completely unused & ignored by most players. If I wasn't purposely going around looking at all the scenes I doubt I would have ever seen it.
    • Sieges & Control Points. They don't do anything. Control points in their current implementation especially being very disappointing and seemingly opposite to the overall vision of the game.
    • Virtue system is too easy to game... and there's little reward either way. The few items affected by your virtue score are weak.
    Not all is doom and gloom, I liked the ep1 story and the game starts out strong with the outskirts and following areas. And Crooked Shank was great.
     
  2. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    A lot of that can be attributed to LB and the rest of the team being a bit garbage at understanding exactly how players will react to the systems they introduce and then them wildly trying to address the situation once it becomes a problem. This problem has existed since the first days of Ultima Online when LB and crew were flabbergasted when players genocided everything they could find and broke the economy by hording gold as a deflation crisis hit. SOTA has the same types of problems like how the crafting economy has been busted from day one due to raw materials being worth vastly more than finished goods since finished goods had no sinks and refining raw materials is one of the most efficient ways to build crafting XP.
     
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  3. craftymethod

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    The game is utterly incomplete. Just look at the update notes. Blink and you miss it.

    I bet Chris and Richard were nowhere near this project all month.

    It shows.
     
  4. simon1974

    simon1974 Bug Hunter

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    not sure what was wrong with the release notes, we weren't even suppose to have a release this month....
     
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  5. Bluefire

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    Fun reading on this thread. Great opinions and considerations from several founding players and new ones alike!

    Some of the systems mentioned as feeling incomplete are precisely the systems that originally drove me away from the game.
    Checkpoints: This was supposed to be a mechanic to prevent players from moving large quantities goods/products from one "zone" to another. For example, the best swords were supposed to be built in one region of the game and sold there because it would be too difficult to move them to another zone to sell them. Never saw how having a high tier mob in the way of going from one part of the map to another would prevent a high level avatar from filling their inventory and running to another scene. Meanwhile the low level avatar tried to run past the mobs and sometimes made it, and sometimes didn't. At the same time the story was made to have players run from zone to zone rather regularly making it an opportunity to get killed simply because you wanted to continue on the/a story line. It makes sense that these were turned into optional adventure areas as it was never possible for these to foster the desired outcome.

    Death Negative Affects: At this point the game has only a a few minor negative affect with Death. While I feel it is a bit much to be stuck longer and longer waiting to rez each time (here to play a game, not stare at a percent complete screen) it makes some sense to have a reason NOT to want to die....but honestly the natural reason is really enough - inconvenience of having to run to an ankh and then restart what you want to do again. There was never a need for skill and/or experience decay coupled with equipped items damage. It is still a bit ridiculous to lose pet food as a result of storing it, zoning with it (apparently moving through a load screen), or it dying. Good to see that player buffs (from food) stick through a death, though. This was the one thing that caused me to disconnect from this game - experience decay.

    PvP: While I feel for the PvP members, I've never liked the idea of being looted of valued items so I avoid PvP completely in this game. A bit of gold? Maybe. Good equipment? No thanks! It's a hangover from UO and I'm sorry but it is not something that makes PvP interesting for the casual or even the somewhat aggressive player. Theoretically it would mean everyone strips down to low value items and has a good time skill against skill alone. One would like to think PvP would be interesting and have a reason to exist...and should never be a simple gank fest where players working together sit and wait for the lamb thinking a PvP zone is the only way to a quest item. That's not entertaining, that's sad. SWG had this figured out very well and I found myself joining in PvP rather frequently as it could lead to some of the best entertainment in the game...even when it was just trying to get to the middle of a PvP zone to get a chance at a rare item. You might have a great battle between the two factions and either be permitted or denied access to the item depending on the day. Another day you might have a good fight or two and then the other players would be happy to help you get the item. Another day it was just a fight in the open world to see who would hold a planet for their faction bonus. But something just to let one type of player benefit over another type of players with no repercussion should remain in the past where PvP in an MMO was being figured out.

    Virtue System: definitely met up with post-modernism since we now get to "determine" how our actions adhere us to the virtues even if that action is technically in complete defiance of the virtue's definition. Were you courageous for slaughtering low level bandits for hours to achieve your goals? You decide! Fun take on them, honestly.... but obviously a bit of a gloss over for an unfinished system. Still, without it, I'd never have considered Shroud.

    Maps: Why do some zones have a map and others do not? Seems silly to have to go find a map on shroudoftheavatar.com and have another screen up to work through a dungeon. I had enough "fun" using graph paper when I was a kid playing Ultima IV...don't need that headache any more especially not in a game that decided to incorporate and automate mapping along the way. It's also funny that on some maps all connections to other zones are shown and on others no connections are shown. Same types of maps...different results. One would think every dungeon should have a map available to purchase from somewhere in the game (even if another player) and while you are exploring a new dungeon the map should draw in for where you have been. It's silly having POIs up on a blank map. Also, why no map for "unused" scenes that are literally just adventure scenes for things like finding pine trees. Again, once I've run all around on that scene cutting down pine trees and discovered several POIs the map should be drawn in and I should be able to potentially copy and sell that map to other players. For now, though, instead of going into a development cycle on map making, why not just make maps show for all zones once a player has run through a good portion of it or just by default?

    Story Play: I decided to come back recently to go through the story. I just solo'd all of chapter one including the lens quests - not an easy feat at some steps, but I went with a L100 dragon and utilized high-ground positioning as well as running in circles around obstacles to help with defense when needed. Would have done the Grannus Collosus in one run (even though I had no idea what it was about before hand) but my internet connection dropped while I was fighting the last spawn in the second closed off section...so waited until another day to do it. Did find that I needed to do quite a bit of mindless grinding to get experience/skills/level up to be prepared for some of the story which is typical of every mmorpg I've ever played. There does need to be some more miscellaneous chat with NPCs that would help point players in how to increase attributes like dexterity...which appears to be only a buff in the Air School and otherwise must be obtained in equipped items.

    In-game currency: Seems strange to me that one of the fastest places to raise gold still remains the soltown catacombs and connecting dungeons. As I moved up to higher tier creatures the ROI (return on investment) seemed to barely move up so why waste time trying to grind through them other than for experience? Higher tier mobs should provide much greater reward both in gold and equipment dropped. In my experience better gear would drop from higher tier mobs...but very, very rarely so overall not a noticeable bump in earnings. In an hour I can earn 1.5-2K in the soltown dungeon. Doing the entire storyline for chapter one I made less than 40K....and re-invested every bit of that into some decent equipment (pet one, pet two, dex, dex, dex, better swords). That really doesn't compute when top tier gear lists for 30-40K for one piece. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure if I joined up with a group of players and went tearing through a Tier 10 zone I'd probably find that to be much more profitable - definitely open to hearing if that's the case. But, where would I find a group doing that and I'd have to figure out the random roll stuff for drops. ;)

    Chapter 2 Story: Now I'm off to figure out how to start the chapter 2 story.... (should that really be a thing - having to figure out how to start it?)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2022
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  6. oplek

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    They should do something like No Man's Sky did, which impressed me

    Back a year-ish ago, they added in the "Settlements" mechanic, which was kind of similar to adopting an NPC village in Minecraft. I hadn't been playing much, but was interested to check it out. I had no idea how to find one, or what to do.

    Within 2 minutes of having logged into the game, I got a distress call from one. I flew to the marker, landed, helped them fight off some drones, and they let me be the mayor.

    A chronic problem SOTA has (which isn't that uncommon), is that, even if new mechanics, or new content, etc, are added, the more casual players log in, look around, see basically the same game they had left previously, shrug, and log off. The new content or mechanics are the thing to lure people back into playing, but you then have to fight and dig and pester people to even find it? All the fixes in the patch notes should be relegated to find print all under "Bug fixes", and the new content and playable stuff featured prominently, with clear instructions on how to find it.

    .. that is, if they want players to stick around. There's too much angst against "hand-holding" around here, though.
     
  7. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Joke's on you; there isn't one yet.
     
  8. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    there are local stories in ep2 scenes (or tied between a couple, like tanglemire and spindelskog), but the overarching storyline is being saved until all the scenes it will run through are in.
     
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  9. Bluefire

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    Heh. Appreciate it. So, suppose I should check back next year and see if the story is in place? I'm partially kidding as I want to keep increasing my skills so I stand a tiny chance of getting through the new scenes.
     
  10. Cora Cuz'avich

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    That's my plan.
     
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  11. FBohler

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    I don't want to discourage you, but being able to solo Ep2 content (which is out in Early Access) requires you to be at a high level (able to solo T10 stuff) and possibly with a meta build. Mid/low level players will be 1-shot all the time over there.
     
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  12. Bluefire

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    Challenge accepted!
     
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  13. Dysis

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    Your event horizon my have passed, however, dont forget we are on episode 2 of 5. So when we are on episode 3, and already have sailing and swimming, things will feel a lil more filled out. Alot of people simply dont want to be involved on the journey to completion(episode 5), and only want to be involved when we reach the destination, which is perfectly ok, and we hope to see more of you as the game progresses. We also know, others will find the missing pay to play or pay 2 win, too much to handle.
     
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  14. Dysis

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    Not sure what you mean. Where does it say no release this month?
    Be sure to check out the Upcoming Events page for spotlighted events plus links to various areas to post or find events on our forums. The upcoming 2022 Release Schedule is as follows:

    • This Release 106 – September 29 (Polish)
    • Release 107 – October 27 (Content)
    • Release 108 – November 17 (Polish)
    • Release 109 – December 15 (Polish)
    I actually thought it showed content for release 106, not for 107, that may have recently changed, however, even a polish is a release.
     
  15. Dysis

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    Completion will be ep. 5, not in ep.2. It will be incomplete until we see ep.5, lots of confusion in this thread, good thing the game is down so we can clear some of it up:)
     
  16. necronut

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    I was a massive fan of PvP in SWG, but I thought it was missing something... risk. If I win, I gain. If I lose... there are no consequences. There have been games that did full loot in pvp perfectly, and those that did understood that player crafted goods and gear, while important for the player driven economy, those goods were not permanent. You could craft a piece of gear, but there would be no repairing it, no matter how fancy it was. So if someone took your stuff, you gathered, refined, and crafted another piece and went right back to it. A minor setback. A temporary inconvenience.

    But in SotA, the crafting system is such that everyone is wearing the same pair of underwear for years and has no need to change them, or do their laundry, or worry about someone stealing them.

    If the crafting system was set up in such a way that the loss of a piece of gear was nothing more than a nigh insignificant stumble, then I'd have loved to see it be full loot pvp.

    I prefer open world pvp vs events, and that's yet another problem I see with SotA pvp. Similarly to shopping around this world for goods. If I want to buy something, or fight another player, I have to hop into a seemingly neverending loading screen simulator as I go from zone to zone, shaking hands with every man, woman, and child as I search. Thus, I'm heavily disincentivized to look for anything.
     
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  17. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    there WAS a tentative plan to let R105 roll for two months to have unity2021 time but the addition of build servers and the need to do rewards trumped it
     
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  18. Gaebril

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    I love that this is almost entirely a productive discussion. After 6 years away I was worried this game would be plagued by naysayers or disgruntled backers (not saying they don't exist just that they aren't all hanging out in the forums).

    In no particular order:
    I disagree with your points here. I get the impression that you are more of a solo player who occasionally joins group events (please correct me if I am wrong), but I primarily enjoy group activities in an MMO. I have also recently finished the Ep 1 quest line and at times it was very lonely and monotonous. In many other MMOs there are things that low/mid level players can't do alone. The implementation of this mechanic in SOTA could have been improved, but removing it completely has also removed a crucial element from the early/mid game: A need to play with friends. I understand there are high lvl zones that players have to group up for, but those are designed for end game content. If I only need to group with other players for the end game zones then I will spend all of the beginning and middle alone. Which begs the question, why is this multiplayer if I don't need to play with other people?

    Obviously this isn't the case, one only needs to acknowledge the GM system to see how a low level player is encouraged to find a high level player to train them. Yet, how are the high level players being encouraged to train low level players? If my reward for playing with someone who has GM Blades is decreased training time, what are they getting from this? I feel many people would say helping a new player is good for the game which in turn is good for someone who has spent the time to gain those higher levels, but I don't think this is enough.


    At the same time I feel the economy is almost completely dominated by raw materials or COTO items. I frequently go through NPC towns and mostly abandoned POTs to looks at vendors with +10 and greater items that have been listed for over 4 years.
    This is exactly the problem. You can't have things that last forever without having an endless stream of new players that need such items.

    SOTA has a demand problem, not a supply problem.
    A non-pvp example I can give is mounts. While I understand why a COTO mount would be eternal (even though I think a heavily reduced price for essentially renting one is better), the basic horse mounts should eventually expire. The materials and skill needed to get another one is entry level: silver ore, leather/cloth, some wood, and the vendor items to craft the relevant refined materials. Taming a horse is one of the first things to train taming so it's not a hard ask few even a few day old player, OR they could simply by one from one of the many player vendors that stock them.

    While I agree PvP for the sake of PvP is meaningless and detracts from engaging game play, I have yet to find a game where the AI could deliver an enemy as crafty or dangerous as my fellow player. To that end a system as simple as a points from PvP being used in an exclusive store would be more engaging that what SOTA currently has (and that isn't to say this would a great addition to the game). The way PvP is leveraged to benefit those that participate should be equal to the risk. If player's don't want to take the risk then they won't participate. There have been some great suggestions in this thread about how PvP could be turned into engaging content that would help float the game between major releases.

    This is definitely not true, and to end on the subject of the original post I think the copied/unnecessary scenes should be removed. It makes more sense for there to be yet undiscovered areas of that will be revealed when there is a purpose for them. This would also address the issue brought up that when people check back in they don't see anything different because, at a surface level, nothing has changed. It also brings the smaller player base into more frequent contact by limiting the areas players can be (obviously I'm ignoring the overwhelming number of POTs that people seem to never leave) and makes the game feel more alive.
     
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  19. necronut

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    The team is small, I understand, and appreciate that, and I hope it's shared. And I've had lots of fun and made really great friends here. I'm saying this because I'm about to be negative, but honest.

    That said, I like the cut of your jib. I have also at one point or another, whether privately, or in these very forums also discussed, at length, the massive amount of supply vs the infinitesimal demand. It was brought up in a discussion about a global vendor listing. There were valid points on all sides, but my argument was, and still is... that a SotA player seeking adventure, pvp, or the purchase of any basic good whether player crafted or otherwise, is going to hit a few loading screens. And listing player sold goods globally would save everyone a massive amount of time spent drifting through the loading screen simulator. Simply comparing prices heavily disincentivizes players from looking for anything at all. Thus... we have all become crafters seeking to sell our goods to people who are also crafters seeking to sell their goods to other people who are also... etc., etc., and it all begins with the loading screen annoyance factor. I'm only crafting because I'm tired of shopping... and I can't shop efficiently because I can't find prices easily.

    Then, of course, was the issue that occurred when a small handful of farmers convinced the team to double the output of agricultural reagents -if not other agricultural goods, I'm not certain there, and if I recall correctly, I used a '90s political campaign slogan: "It's the economy, stupid." I explained that doubling the economic output of a good, without an increased demand for that good, would dramatically lower the value of that good within the economy... this issue still remains in the game. There is more garlic, mandrake, and nightshade alone within this economy to keep the price low for an eternity. Though some farmers have frequent ragequits *ahem*. We used to sell all 3 at around 2.2gp ea. They are now commonly sold for 1 and change. (A doubling of output)+(no increased demand)=(a halving of value). My point stood then as it does now on the merit of "Just look... it's right there. Can't miss it if you have eyes and they're open."

    Simply put, crafting is broken. Not in any way other than player manufactured goods last too long for the economy to function at anything more than a snail's pace for all but the small handful of top merchants/crafters. That is not a feature. That is a huge... glaring... and ugly bug. Not unlike "private" pvp instances, which I also noticed is still a bug... so much so, that there are people who, in fact, do not think it is a bug. When the game is working correctly, if you are flagged for pvp, you are in open, and you cannot go private without dropping the flag.

    We have a lot of balancing desperately in need of being done, but since bard, and blablabillions of XP having been introduced, lots of balancing seems to not see much conversation anymore. Not that it was completely balanced, it's that the game is new broke on top of the old broke. Buffs are out of control, movement speed is out of control, fire is still OP, bard is still OP, air+archery... while not as bad... still needs work, bard+tamer needs work so bad. My great grandma shouldn't be able to solo a dragon... but there she is... so good it this game... just look at her. She's not even alive.

    Oh... SotA... I love you. But I don't. But I do... but I don't... but still do.
     
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  20. Gia2

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    Amen
    this is what made me play daoc for kinda 15 years. Every day was different. Sometime you got engaged as soon as you stepped out from a castle, the day after a completely new situation.
    Open PvP is a flywheel that harmonize and balance economy in both crafting and pve drops
    Open PvP sieges help harmonize low pop/time spike population by giving hybrid pve/pvp gameloop incentivating people in such low pop scenarios.
    IMHO
     
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