PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

The claim that this is a spiritual successor to Ultima is misleading. There is not a single Ultima game where players cannot interact with their environment. There also is not a single Ultima game where there are invisible barriers protecting players. Thus, the claim that this is a spiritual successor to Ultima is not true. It should simply state that this is a game from the developers of Ultima, considering there is nothing in common between the two games other than the developers.

 

The way you put it makes it sound as there it wasn't anything else in a Ultima game that the way a player can die or lose. There is a lot of aspects of an Ultima game and an "spiritual succesor" must be true to most of them, but not necessarily all.
In fact, PvP has only existed on a single Ultima game (which is not even considered a real Ultima by some people), and the same developers have said that the way it eventually became wasn't what they feeled it should.

 

Just wanted to say that I love how "players cannot interact with their environment" has replaced "players cannot be killed by me and others".

Good marketing, that.

 

The fact is other players are part of the environment in an MMORPG.

 

First explain how you can't interact with your environment in this game? Other people? One thing you can't interact with means the environment isn't interactive. And because the one, count it ONE Ultima game that you could interact with other players allowed forced PVP and this one doesn't it isn't Ultima? I don't buy that. Having PVP flags is simply the next evolution of the game. That's like saying that Underworld I and II weren't Ultima because they were first person with no party. Or that Ultima 6 wasn't Ultima because is had a different colorful interface. I've been playing Ultima games since I was 8 or 9 years old, and this game seems to be the very epitome of Ultima to me. Because they changed one aspect to protect players from unwanted content, everything else about the game that is so very like the 12 or more Ultima games that weren't UO don't matter. I don't follow your logic. If you are not happy that there is no forced PVP please just say that. To claim that the kickstarter info is lying because it isn't exactly the way you want the game to be is not cool dude.

 

Ok, here is an idea to try to be productive and constructive: Why don't we try to stop being ambiguous with words like "freedom", "environment" and the likes?

Let's start with a straight fact: There is no such thing as "freedom" in a computer game. Everything that one wants to be able to do must be programmed into it first. A computer only knows how to do what you program into it. As such, there is no actual "restrictions" to your freedom, just things that haven't been programmed or haven't been programmed the way you like it.

So, please, if you really want to be able to do something in the game, state EXACTLY what do you want to be able to do (or with some configurable parameters), instead of just vague words. Examples:
-I want to be able to kill anyone, without restrictions.
-I want to be able to kill anyone who has agreed to take that risk.
-I want to be able to loot everything from my victims.
-I want to be able to loot a percentage of my victims gear.
-I want to be able to pick every flower I see in the game.
-I want to be able to fly.
-I want death to remove experience from the player
-I want death to apply a temporal damper on the skills of the player
Etc, etc, etc...

Because things like "I want freedom", "I want death to be meaningful" or "I want to feel the thrill of risk from the game" mean very different things to each individual, so the best way to express what you want in the game is actually say what you want in the game, with no dressing. That way we'll fully understand what each other wants and can start working towards a common goal.

 

This is not Ultima for the reason explicitly stated above. You are entitled to express your opinion on what Ultima is. I have a problem when it comes to developer imposed restriction on what players can and cannot do. There was only one Ultima game that was multiplayer, and guess what; it was an open world with complete immersion. That is the logic and the criteria for what an Ultima game is as far as I am concerned.

PvP flags are not an evolution, they are a feature of a successful MMORPG. There are several cases where MMORPG's have been successful with open PvP based on the number of subscribers and the amount of subscribers maintained over several years. The argument that PvP flags are some sort of "evolution" in the genre is nonsense, considering the theory of evolution. Games which do not evolve simply would cease to exist, losing all of their subscribers to games that did. After all, that is what survival of the fittest is all about.

I am not happy that the members of the society in the game will not have to rely on one another. The community will be composed of people banding together to complete an instance, where if they do die there is no penalty. Ultima Online had no quests, the players created the content. The community was the only thing that existed in the game and it was great because of it. You could do anything at any time and interact with everything. It was fun, it was thrilling, and most importantly it was not a mindless grind to complete quests and acquire new gear.

I want open PvP, full loot, and the ability to steal from other players. There should be no invisible hand monitoring my behavior in game. Thus, I want the freedom to behave and interact with the environment the way I desire to do so.

 

Let's hold off on the judgments a bit. The pvp design is not close to being done as far as I can tell. Continue to give ideas and thoughts but lets not burn the village. I am a UO pvper and I am still super excited about this game.

 

Cool, this type of game isn't Ultima to you. I disagree with that point of view but we are all entitled to our own point of view.

I must point out that SOTA is not an MMORPG. That is clearly stated multiple times. Considering the fact that UO had to be split into PVP and non-PVP sections in order to keep enough customers to profit, exactly means that PVP flags are an evolution of the game. This way different groups with different play styles can all interact with each other. Considering Survival of the fittest is a term referring to natural selection, which in turns operates of the principle of "Infinite Variety" with the fittest traits being past on because they survived, the idea of changing the system and how it may work is the very definition of game evolution. If forced PVP was the fittest trait for a game, we wouldn't have so many games that don't offer that option, and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I think we may be destined to simply disagree on this subject. So instead of wasting time arguing, lets all try and focus on enacting what changes we can to try and improve the overall game itself.

Nice talking with you Ultima Aficionado.

 

I don’t get it…this game was never marketed as not having quests/storyline…as a matter of fact it was one of the main focuses of the kickstarter. I’m not sure how you could have missed that when they kept talking about the older ultima’s all the time. They did say they wanted the “social” aspect UO had and they also wanted it to not turn into the dog eat dog realistic world of magic and fantasy creatures.

 

so what you are saying is literally that he has no right to participate in this thread that is about pvp and not about the storyline and quests, because it was not mentioned on kickstarter?
or is your post meant to be in another thread, because last time I checked this is the thread about how to structure pvp where the devs specifically asked players to write down what they want...?

 

Um no? It was in direct response to his going on about how it was in ultima online and how this is nothing like it…I don’t think I ever said no pvp in that post at all. A bit of twisting what I said.

 

If you read the previous posts that rune was responding to, you will see this had absolutely nothing to do with anybodies right to post on the thread. Ultima Aficionado said that SOTA wasn't ultima. The debate continued on with the value of forced PVP. We were talking about how this game is similar to earlier ultimas, and how the kickstarter info clearly stated that. Please don't put words in someone mouth. If you are going to jump all over a guy for a post, it might also be a good idea to read previous posts and be sure of what he is talking about. Rune has just as much right to post as any of us. Reasoned debate cannot happen if we decide to jump all over people.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

 

I read the posts, he said what he expects from this game and this is exactly what the devs wanted players to do in this thread. And the comparison to UO can be expected because this is the only, as far as I know, Ultima game that had multiplayer & PvP?
Plus, it was not stated on kickstarter how SoTA is going to be only like the other Ultima games, it was stated it will be a mix of all Ultimas which UO is a part of.

So I do not see your point tbh.

Just two weeks ago RG said again on mmorpg.com that SoTA is the spiritual successor to Ultima Online (check the forums for this one).

What exactly a spiritual successor is, can be debated. It can mean different things to different people, but then it should be made clear once and for all by the person who said it first, which is RG.

 

My point is funnily enough, in your post. SOTA is a mix of all the ultima games, including UO, but also with all that quest, storyline, and RP of the other 12 or so ultima game. The person Rune was talking about said that SOTA wasn't Ultima, and that the kickstarter info lied about what SOTA was going to be. He also said something about SOTA not having anything to do with Ultima. Which is what we were debating. Rune pointed out that the kickstarter said it was going to have a heavy focus on quests, storyline, rp, and continue with UO social aspects. Suddenly you accuse him of saying that Ultima Aficionado didn't have a right to post on this thread. Which Rune in no way shape or form said. Are you trolling me, or do you really not see how this all connects?

 

I'm certainly not trolling you lol. You just misinterpreting what Ultima Aficionado said, he stated: "I, for one, as a PvP player feel betrayed. It seems the developers have abandoned us. The faint glimmer of hope which remained has finally dissipated. This is not a compromise and this is not Ultima."

And before he was talking about exactly the phrase that so many people argue over, when RG says "Ultima Online Spiritual Successor". And how he expected something else, closer to UO, which imho is absolutely OK, because after all, a spiritual successor can mean different things to different people.
All I'm saying is that this is the thread where PVP players are expected to talk about their expectations regarding PVP (Which again, is Ultima Online since it is the only Ultima game with PVP), so you guys should not tell them basically that it's their own fault and that they can not read, because "It was all written on KS".

 

I think we may be arguing two different points.

This line is what Rune and I were discussing. He said it claimed to be something it is not. Rune said but it was clearly stated that it was going to be this way. Ultima Aficionado has every right to his point of view. It was the line claiming the game claimed to be something it wasn't when the kickstarter flat out said spiritual successor to the ultima series. It even specifically mentioned they would be looking at online multiplayer beyond combat. We were discussing that. We weren't saying anything about him not being able to post ideas about how PVP is gonna work etc.

Glad we cleared that up. No hard feelings?

 

Mate i dont think anyone that talked in this topic in favour of open pvp and loot wants this game to have PK/Robin Hoods roaming around in every inch of the game.That never happened and in UO PKs were also a minority and the thing you are saying about that in the long run these outlaws would be dealt is the point.None and i mean none has in mind a game that outlaws rule the land.It wasnt the case back then and it wont be now (and thats fine )
Also people pointed out the voidness that will follow the skills like stealing,sneaking etc if we got player to player interaction with such boundaries
Plus i cant see the point on agreed pvp only.If thats the case then i should pick the monster i will attack and only then and if that monsters decides to fight me or not based on its AI algorithm then we got a pve fight(and not by other means should i ever "aggro" this monster if we make it function in the same manner that PvP will)
In a world either we like it or not there are events that we cant avoid.We must take action.Is a vital part of feeling part of the world and not a guest-star partner

 

Thanks ragnabrock, I'm not sure how that got so convoluted.

 

I totally agree and support you on that mate.I will add that i dont feel betrayed as a PvP player but as an Ultima player.People here think that whoever defends PvP here is a wannabe PK and that isnt the case.In fact i want to have a full fledge PK char as much as i want to have a crafter that really matters in the economy(and not being in the game to assemble super items and thats all) and as much as i want to just fish to chill. .Is simple.Just have all the options open and discover them when and if you want....If we start with boundaries its 99% certain on the road more boundaries will come on the way and ending up to another spoon feeding game which is more or less what you get these days as people ,including me ,said.
I personally accept and want the human interaction with its plus and minus on all aspects and i cant figure why (although i respect and accept it) people want cencorship and boundaries on that.Is like losing the essence of a multiplayer game(or a game with a multiplayer nature as well like SoTA )
I may as well be a victim of a PK with my crafter or adventurer.But same thing applies for a random aggro and death by monster.So lets start nerfing pve aspects as well since i want my pve to be flat and safe before the game even starts.