Conversation with Chris on skills

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by redfish, May 9, 2014.

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  1. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    The subject of skill caps came up in the other thread, so I thought this conversation from #SotA the other day was a bit relevant. Hopefully the devs will expand on this sometime in the forums or in a hangout.


    [12:45.26] <+Chris> No hard skill point cap. Just realistically, there aren't enough hours in the day and days in the year for you to eventually earn all the points

    [12:48.01] <+Chris> Yep, we might change our minds later but currently not planning on caps that are fixed

    [12:50.51] <+Chris> Spork_Witch, caps in most games are required because they focus on a very rigid power balance based purely on spreadsheets. We have far less than that and because of how the deck building works, having twice as many abilities just allows for more flexibility
    [12:51.10] <+Chris> because if you just crammed everything in your deck, you would just dilute your cards

    01:03.46] <+Chris> Spork, current plan for armor is to have it add dead cards to your deck which can be reduced with skills. Also will likely increase fizzle rates and impact magic in other ways but haven't set that yet

    [01:06.55] <+Chris> Redfish, mages probably won't need a hand free. Because our card system actually requires you to think, it will likely be more exhausting and we don't want to force you to use it at all times. So we'll let spellcasters use wands, staves, bows, etc so they can contribute to battle
     
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  2. Mishri

    Mishri Avatar

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    Interesting. That might make passives much more powerful. I guess we'll find out during testing. Early on they said there will be skill caps, looks like they changed their mind.

    I'd also expect that just the most powerful/best magic spells in each school will be used for people in the magicks.
     
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  3. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    The hard skill caps in UO ultimately led to min/maxxing where people had rote levels of skills for optimal builds.
     
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  4. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Not sure I completely jive with the planned approach to magic.

    I think its obvious that a mage should be able to contribute to battle in other ways than his magic... its been this way since early D&D, where the mage's ability to recall spells was limited and he had to have some basic weapons to be able to fight off enemies in close quarters. But you would expect a mage to either use a one handed weapon, like a dagger or short sword, or use a two-handed weapon that can be held one-handed, like a long staff, which mages are known for. In the situation that he's using a bow, he's far from battle and would have time to unequip and have a hand free.

    The main issue is just, as I've been playing the pre-alphas, is it feels really silly that you're casting magic through your weapons.
     
  5. Curt

    Curt Avatar

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    Once they get the deck combat working it will be intresting to see how many combos They and WE can come up with.

    • healing touch + death touch gives ?
    • light + stone wall
    • soothing rain + lightning
    • push + deflect
    To list some combinations i think will be hard to make any useful of.
     
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  6. Alayth

    Alayth Avatar

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    I really like that they've moved in the direction of no hard-caps. I like the feeling of always being able to make forward progress, even if that progress becomes slow or doesn't result in huge payoffs - having limited potential just stifles my motivation.
     
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  7. Eriador

    Eriador Avatar

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    [​IMG]
     
  8. PrimeRib

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    Skill caps didn't really fit with the way they were building everything else. So something had to give. This was expected.
     
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  9. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I think mages need to have a hand free, even the "off hand", in order to cast. So no dual wielding, or shields, but a single weapon (even a 2H weapon) or just a shield would be acceptable. Otherwise, its just warrior-mages all over again. Why *not* use magic if there is no downside?
     
  10. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Technically, in the case of the planned skill system, there's still a downside... in that you're giving up progression in combat skills for progression in magic skills, and you'll still want to choose to wear light armor over heavy armor since you can't easily switch armors in the middle of battle. Although, I think it still would prevent mages from having distinct character in the game, because you'll have mages with sword and shields, or two-handed axes... and that just would take something out of the appeal of magic-users. They'd no longer be old wizards, just normal guys who happen to have magic.

    You may have a similar problem with rogue characters, I think, because rogue skills currently appear tied up in normal combat skills, and that would make them non-unique. We have yet to see how stuff like lock-picking will work in the game, though.
     
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  11. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    If you can wield two weapons or a weapon and shield, PLUS magic, you are gaining progression in all three simultaneously instead of just one weapon and magic (or magic and shield). So thats not quite accurate. If heavy armor puts slugs in for magic, that offsets that somewhat, but still isn't very realistic.

    I agree, don't let wizards be "normal guys who happen to have magic"!

    Rogue skills are separate, as they are part of PvP experience. They probably have their own sigil as well, since they are not part of the combat or magic one (although there is some crossover, such as Moon magic emulating some stealth skills and Sun being effective against both Moon and Rogue stealth).
     
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  12. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    What about having magic foci be available which mildly enhances efficiency (slightly lower Focus cost), and equip to the offhand like a shield. These would be wands, staves, orbs, rods, spellbooks, reagent pouches, idols, etc. They wouldn't appear in the character's hand to, but instead be "readied" (hanging on the belt, on a bandoleer, cuffed to the character's arm, etc).

    This would give both a benefit for having a "free hand" for spellcasters, while making in-game sense.
     
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  13. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Browncoat Jayson
    Rogue skills are separate, as they are part of PvP experience. They probably have their own sigil as well, since they are not part of the combat or magic one (although there is some crossover, such as Moon magic emulating some stealth skills and Sun being effective against both Moon and Rogue stealth).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't agree that Rogue skills are PvP... I believe that's an "assumption?"
    Scout, Stealth, we truly can't assume anything right now about what Portalarium will describe as a Rogue. I see many skills that are already planed into the other sigils that "I would have considered Rogue exclusive". UO and other MMO's may have screwed up our brains into believing that their versions of what a Rogue is or is not.
    "I'd like to end up with Batman instead of Robbing". If I'm going to rob anything, please make mine a bank and not another player's lame pocket again.

    I'm very interested on how the game play skills and cards will be unique to this specific game, because I truly do not want to be reminded of another.
    I want a new experience, and I think we're getting one ;)
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  14. Gabriel Nightshadow

    Gabriel Nightshadow Avatar

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    Well said, Time Lord :D I like to think of them more as spy skills. I'm not interested in robbing people, but surveillance, sabotage, etc. That's more like it :D
     
  15. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Yea, rogues can be bad characters but they can also be good characters. Robin Hood is the archetype of a good rogue. Rogues rely on things like wit, stealth, know-how (ropes, hooks, lockpicks, etc), street smarts, and physical abilities.
     
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  16. Eriador

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    For me if you are a rogue and you must fight you are a bad rogue. :p
     
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  17. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Although, I do expect things from a rogue like archery and backstabbing (assassins). That's not really combat, though.
     
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  18. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Peter Pan was a Rogue and he is huge everywhere in the world!


    Everybody likes a their Rogue to be a hero :rolleyes: not a zero ...
    ~Time Lord~;)
     
  19. PrimeRib

    PrimeRib Avatar

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    Agreed. Stealth isn't "bad." It's accomplishing the mission by killing less people. This is James Bond, Mission Impossible, etc.

    In my mind, there's hundreds of ways to solve the mage / weapon / defense problems. If they need help, I'd be happy to design one, but in my mind, it simply falls into place if they got the other things right.

    At the most simplest level, I imagine something a bit like gw2 where your equipped weapons and armor give you base moves for attack and defense. Then you learn more advanced moves through a variety of paths. If they want nuke spamming, they they should have wands or staffs to balance with the other weapons.
     
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  20. High Baron Asguard

    High Baron Asguard Avatar

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    Just to play devils advocate, why shouldn't you be able to cast THROUGH a sword? that's exactly how magic worked in David Eddings's The Elenium world, where the spellcasters were actually knights\paladin types.

    Its also how things were in Ultima 9 (the only 3D type Ultima where there actually were casting actions etc)
     
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