Response to Crafting Deep Dive

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Bowen Bloodgood, Apr 4, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Correct. My thinking in having the vendor simply delete the item is that it creates an imbalance in the economy where the vendor is losing money for no reason. Why would a vendor buy anything with no profit? If they're buying a broken down piece of gear they'll do it very cheaply so they can salvage resources they can resell for profit. The end result being they've got a couple extra ingots or a piece of sheet metal to sell rather than the item simply going *poof*

    This is also in the spirit of preserving history even if the player is unaware of it. In truth, most of us won't be aware of the history of anything we buy that isn't brand new but the fact that that history exists is part of what creates the richness of the world.

    Anyway the main goal here is preserving a balanced economy. Naturally I'm also for salvaging broken items. I don't think anything should simply vanish. Most worn out gear has something that can be reused. So the sword is broken.. the hilt is still in good shape. Salvage the hilt and use it in the next sword.. some retained history there. Maybe it's the hilt that broke and the blade is still useable. or sell it to the local crafter who can smelt it down back into ingots.

    Those are my personal preferences at least but more important is that crafted items eventually get removed from the economy to make room for new items to be crafted.
     
    Dhimmi and Sir Bradley White like this.
  2. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    I wonder whether there could be any unique result from salvaging a broken piece of magical armor. Say you have a fire-resistant breastplate that's smashed to pieces.. does melting it create a fire-resistant iron ingot, or a normal iron ingot? I guess it may depend on how they're doing enchanting, and whether its a process that has to happen before the plate is forged, or afterwards. Its possible the process of enchanting requires some binding runes etched in the metal, in which case the magic is broken when the rules are destroyed. And its also possible the magic is expended and burned away when the breastplate is melted.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  3. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    My inclination is that enchantments would be lost if the enchanted item loses its form (ie is melted down). Broken into pieces may be another issue entirely.. but if you're messing with it to the point that molecules are moving around then I see no reason that an item should hold an enchantment.
     
    Time Lord likes this.
  4. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    EXACTLY RIGHT!!! check out this thread because it has some solutions for this problem.

    INCREASING ITEM REPAIR COSTS THREAD:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/increasing-item-repair-costs.9444/
     
  5. Sunsanvil

    Sunsanvil Avatar

    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    593
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Dude, you just blew my mind! You are so right: I will NEVER want to use my cool sword cause I wont want to ever wear it out beyond (financially viable) repair.
     
    Isaiah likes this.
  6. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,822
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo
    I don't think items going "poof" is a bad thing if they serve the purpose of maintaining a good in game economy ... if items could be salvage for ore by a vendor and then sold we could run into several problems ...

    - I could see a system that "worthless" gear could be sold for materials that went to the "betterment" of the town / city / village

    For example - if unusable resources were collected to build city defense etc
     
  7. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male

    Yeah it just dawned on me one day after listening to the concept of continually increasing repairs. I knew I didn't like that idea, but then it hit me that nobody is going to use their good items, and maybe nobody would bother buying such great items either!!! Furthermore why make such great items if nobody wants to use them??? LoL

    Perpetually increasing item repair costs just seem to be a problem. It will likely lead to people being upset. The crafting system is good, but the increasing repair costs will take people's focus off of how good the crafting is, and place it on the repair cost fiasco.

    I'll copy and past the post from this thread into here or maybe a moderator can merge the two threads, because the crafting system is totally non-operational at this point because of increasing repair costs. This is an absolute must fix!
     
    Sunsanvil likes this.
  8. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    THIS IS A COPY AND PAST FROM THIS THREAD: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/increasing-item-repair-costs.9444/

    *****************************************************

    Increasing Item Repair Costs have a side effect. If you think about it the side effect is exactly the same as if you had enabled full loot in PvP.

    Side Effect: People will not always use their best items because they don't want to incur the higher resource repair costs later on.

    So instead of only PvP players not using their best items in the game at all times, all of the players PvP and PvE will rather use a second best set of items, unless they are going out to fight epic creatures, or in PvP mode fighting a special guild war.

    I most certainly won't want to use my best items against trash mobs if I know that my repair costs will continually increase. Forget that 1000 elf slayer sword, I'd rather use my items to fight against dragons. I'm sure many others will protect their best items this way as well.

    Either way people will not be using their best items all the time. Just something to think about while designing the crafting system, PvP, and item usage.


    **************************************************************


    EDIT (from later in this thread):
    what do people think of this alternative...???
    So basically the item doesn't break and you can repair it for a normal fee a certain number of items then it loses one of it's refinements. In order for it to be reforged to its former glory, it must be reforged from scratch using all the materials needed for every level of refinement again.

    This way It is as if a crafter crafted a totally new item from scratch, but it keeps the full history of the item. This will allow a crafter to charge full price for such a repair!!! Because it's basically making the item from scratch, but you keep the same item history that's all.
     
  9. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    ITEMS NEVER HAVE TO BE TOTALLY DESTROYED:
    In order for a weapon to have 1000 elf slayer it would be a shame if it goes poof or it has to be retired. That's why I think an optional reforge option as mentioned above fits the SotA system nicely. That way you can use an item and it loses a refinement after a certain number of repairs. You can still repair it like normal but it stays one step weaker than its former glory but it retains its item history. You can choose to reforge the item using it as the base resource in the crafting recipe.

    AS FOR ITEMS BEING FOUND AS LOOT:
    I believe the best way to fill the gap for such items is for SotA to have a type of SotA bulk order deed where an NPC issues a request for certain items to be made and you return them with the deed filled out to get a reward (that way we can have every type of item available as loot not just the popular ones)... (I think this will be where most of the items will come from for loot since not many people will want to retire their 1000 elf slayer sword, and items will not be stolen by monsters fast enough).
     
  10. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,822
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo

    Issue for me is that we have a closed economy - if items don't get retired we will run into stagnation - and people will hoard on purpose - increasing repairs can be done right - it all depends how they balance it

    Reforging / salvaging is not a bad idea but they need to have it be more complex primarily because of the closed economy
     
    Phredicon likes this.
  11. Phredicon

    Phredicon Avatar

    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    1,842
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Unfortunately the use of absolute statements makes me ignore the concern behind them, which may be valid and at the very least deserves discussion. I don't agree that the repair costs increasing every time it's done is a bad idea, much less that it "breaks the game", but I'm willing to hear why you think so and what you suggest would work better other than "get rid of it".
     
    NRaas likes this.
  12. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Margard likes this.
  13. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165

    People will save their good items for when they really need them. Same as if they were afraid of losing them to open PvP, and why full looting isn't a problem.

    I'm not necessarily fond of the idea of continually increasing repair costs, mind you, I just don't think its a big issue if people aren't using their best items all the time.
     
    Isaiah likes this.
  14. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    The way I personally envision a reforge is basically recreating the item from scratch using the old item as the base material. Then crafters can basically charge FULL PRICE for a reforge, since they would have to go through each step of the refinement process. It's basically a new item but keeps the same item history. So for all intents and purposes a reforge is basical a new item, with the history copied over from the old one.

    Salvaging might be rarer if people choose the reforge option, but it could still be possible. However I think by adding a "request for items" deed from an NPC weapons shop owner would provide crafters plenty of work to do, and would also help in developing your skill levels. Turning in a request for items to an NPC would then immediately convert those items as lootable items for the game.

    Say a person has a request for items deed that asks for a shield, a sword, and a dagger. That shield, sword, and dagger would immediately be usable as loot on monsters (even if they are of low quality, the game could sort out the good and bad items and assign them some kind of loot value). The benifit for this system is that not only do you get crafters crafting stuff for rewards, but you also get items as loot (all kinds of items, not just the most popular items).

    EDIT: So basically what I was responding to was that items that never are destroyed don't have to ruin the economy if you have a reforge option for items that lose a refinement over multiple repairs.
     
  15. rschultzy80

    rschultzy80 Avatar

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    18
    In a way I understand what the devs are trying to do but... Why would a weapon get stronger the more I use it? Unless it's magical and I am gaining affinity with those properties (which I could certainly see). Let's be honest, if I have a perfectly balanced, crafted GM sword, then I should be able to buy another perfectly balanced, crafted GM sword and do just as much if not more damage because it's new.

    If we look at this realistically, imagine how hard life would be on say a knife thrower. Who would go and buy a set of knives and they would all be different weight and balance? I mean maybe if they were cheap but not something that's masterfully made. You pay more to have that balance and weight be the same with each knife. Why would it be different with a sword or shield etc?

    Why would a piece of iron or steel all of a sudden become more powerful because I killed a certain amount of mobs with it. Makes absolutely no sense from a RP/realism stand point. If anything, used equipment that has been repaired should become weaker...

    If there is supposed to be a storyline/RP in this game I don't see how any of this makes much sense. Why would I be personally attached to some random crafted sword? Unless it was a king's boon (in which case it'd be on a mantle in my house) why would I care?

    A sword is a tool to be used, when it wears out you replace it... It certainly doesn't become stronger the more I use it, if that was the case I may as well just go destroy haystacks all day.
     
  16. Doomgrin

    Doomgrin Avatar

    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado Springs

    Refer to Glamdring and Orcrist from Tolkien. This is also a fantasy game... a weapon crafted may grow to crave the blood of certain enemies given the wielder's magic and emotions seep into the possessions they have. In fact, my person favorite homerule in D&D games is the ability to improve items through experience. I never liked the level 1 character "Here is my father's armor!" for balance reasons is masterwork armor at best... 1 day later, "We killed an ogre! And look at this armor!" poor daddy's armor tossed aside for the new +1 armor that smells of ogre.
     
    rild likes this.
  17. rschultzy80

    rschultzy80 Avatar

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    18
    So magical high elves are crafting commonplace GM weapons now?

    Edit: And weren't those items crafted for an Ancient King? Not some merchant's guard.
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Firstly I would remind folks.. balance.. balance.. balance.. the idea of weapons gaining strength I think has always been a limited one. Firstly it should take a very long time of consistent use to gain a title or any kind of bonus at all.. and those bonuses should only go so far. There always seems to be this assumption with this and other ideas (ie salvage) that it won't be well balanced and ultimately overpowering and ergo a bad idea. I'd rather not shoot down otherwise good ideas over balance concerns. This isn't the point of the thread though but I want to emphasize that these things can be done in a fun and balanced way.

    I'd prefer not to go digging through another thread for my response to the reforge idea. I recall I wasn't overly fond of it though. I would point out also that this isn't the only thread with suggestions. I have personally been on about this issue for about a year now. I brought it up again because of comments in the deep dive made it apparent that the current thinking hasn't changed much.

    So devs.. any search on 'repair costs' 'salvage' and 'breakage' should probably bring up all discussions over the past year on the subject.
     
    Margard likes this.
  19. rschultzy80

    rschultzy80 Avatar

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I understand your point and agree with almost everything you have said throughout this thread. However, having scaling weapons and increasing repair costs you are talking about a very fine line with regards to having balance. Not too mention all the PvE folks who have howled on every thread concerning looting because "why play a game if you can't use your best gear". The same issue applies here but I don't see any of them coming out of the woodwork because it's not a PvP thread.
     
  20. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,595
    Likes Received:
    1,822
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo

    Realism has to be measured through the lense of the ingame world - not our world - at this point we don't know if we would have to imbue a weapon with magical properties / or if the weapon is crafted from meteorite ore ...

    from a person who is just playing a game - having things to achieve in game / add a good amount of spice / and s a little something to be happy about

    I don't see the harm in it as long as it is consistent within the lore of the game
     
    NRaas likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.