So what exactly do we mean by chaos anyway?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vyrin, May 14, 2014.

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  1. Acrylic 300

    Acrylic 300 Avatar

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    Yes, rules were not made to be broken. Standards are not meant to be double standards. Order is fairness...Order is the essence of virtue, not to be twisted into self promoting ideologies, but to be followed stringently for the good of all.
     
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  2. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    They do not necessarily say "they are order" .. they say "I follow Lord British" ... ~shrugs~ I just want to eat him o_O
     
  3. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

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    Most such "philosophies" fall apart when you're removed from social interaction completely. Humans are social creatures, and these frameworks (like both Order and Chaos) have more to do with interactions between people than they do the choices one person makes in an extremely isolated environment. After all, in a completely isolated environment, the idea of order in a social sense loses context.
     
  4. Vyrin

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    I guess what I'm really saying is I can't "chaos" a burger with extra bacon. I have to "order" it.

    Order wins!

    I can't post for the rest of the day but I'm glad the discussion is taking off... keep at it!
     
  5. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    I'm told that chaos is about following your desires. If you want to follow your desires, you're forced to care. Lets say you desire something from liege DarkStarr, but to get what you want requires patience. You are however an impatient person, so in order to get what you desire you must learn the virtue of patience. Of course, you can give up the desire for patience, but then you also have to give up the other desire, too, since you can't achieve it without being patient.

    And certainly, it is a paradox to follow either Order or Chaos, which is exactly why someone should follow neither as a principle in itself. :>
     
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  6. NRaas

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    Really ? Really ? :p

    You did not just say that. I choose not to believe that actually just occurred. ;)
     
  7. redfish

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    Humans can be isolated creatures as much as they can be social creatures, and the choices they make in society are not meaningful because society validates them or because society rejects them. They're meaningful or not regardless of what others think of them. People should not validate themselves based on whether others agree or disagree with them. Any philosophy of life that is based on social interaction is based on an artificial foundation.
     
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  8. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    Neutrality is a principle in itself following neither -- OR --- does it actually embrace both? ;)

    As pre-posted - Order does not say "i am a devotee of order" they say - "i follow lord British", they are much in the same meaning.
    Devotee of Chaos --- I follow Lord Blackthorn ~coughs~ DarkStarr to my grave. Again they are one in the same.

    Following neutrality - not choosing either side to follow is still a form of chaos simply because you are not choosing a side, you are indeed going against the norm and doing your own what best fits your life. Even if taking from both or neither, it is chaos.
     
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  9. redfish

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    To say its philosophically Neutral, you first have to accept the validity of the fight between a philosophy of Chaos and philosophy of Order. Naturally, those who wish to see the world in two camps -- Order and Chaos -- have to figure out what to do with those who don't want to play the game.. and they call them Neutral :)
     
  10. rild

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    To Amberraine's point:

    Thoughts and actions arise seemingly on their own. While we may choose to investigate the deep causal roots of such (or indeed all) phenomena, at other times we may simply accept them and allow them to be. When one is in accord with the ALLTHING(s) i.e. Chaos, the thoughts and actions that arise "seemingly on their own" will be the ones needed for that moment. Likewise, the absent of action may be the appropriate action. Acceptance.

    It sounds to me like, to Amberraine, acting in harmony with Chaos (what a great turn of phrase!) is Surrender of a kind, to cast one's body into the wind and see where it carries you. At the same time this is coupled with a strong individualism and a stark refusal to allow anyone but Self or Destiny to guide the winding of one's way.

    "The Aneristic Principle is that of apparent order; the Eristic Principle is that of apparent disorder. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of pure chaos, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making." -Principia Discordia

    "Tao takes no action and yet leaves nothing unaccomplished" ~Tao te Ching



    "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." ~lyric from the song "Freewill" by Rush (please sing aloud to self in Geddy Lee voice)

    "Foot THAT in your Pope and grok it!" -Rild
     
  11. PrimeRib

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    I haven't seen whatever lore would get people to think order was more good and chaos more evil. I would assume the opposite.
    Ultima V was about Lord Blackthorn rigidly codifying the virtues into laws.
    "Order" to me sounds like something out of Orwell or some totalitarian state...the opposite of freedom and liberty.
     
  12. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    Most forget about the neutral. You have a solid point here, embrace of both - Lawful (Order) and Chaotic (Chaos)

    Neutral - I could see myself in this camp - before i get marked a traitor - hear me out i am not! my devotions remain unwaivered. I can be me, as I always have been, and still follow Lord DarkStarr - What would be the difference to how i am now?

    A Devotee of DarkStarr ((is said to be a Devotee of Chaos)) however a follower of neutral - could be doing exactly what i am doing, letting the chips fall where they may and going about their business not really caring about what is or is not, laying no mind to the virtues because they are just there but unimportant because it is chosen to not "choose" to validate them.. and still follow DarkStarr --- they are not choosing to be Chaos, they are simply choosing to follow a direction without being validated.

    therefore -- is as i pre-mentioned - Neutral not chaotic? Neutral could also be orderly... neutral is a figment of your imagination!! and still leads to the union of both camps only it is intermingled into one ;)
     
  13. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    @Rild - YOU understand what i have been saying ~bows respectfully~
     
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  14. redfish

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    Is it Neutral, or Balance? :>

    [​IMG]

    The Great Earth Serpent will not be insulted by being called Neutral. His job is to mediate and keep things in order balance. This is very serious.

    I guess it depends on whether its chaotically aligned or orderly aligned :) Neutral is chaotically aligned, suggesting apathy, while Balance is orderly aligned, suggesting structure.

    Perhaps living your life wisely is the most important thing, and not worrying about whether you're chaotic, orderly, or neutral :)
     
  15. Trenyc

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    No, you misunderstand. There is ample evidence in the field of psychology that regular social interaction is necessary. This doesn't mean you are biologically required to be an extrovert. It does mean that if you're stuck in a place with literally no other people for an extended period of time, you will start to lose your marbles.

    Also, because most moral frameworks hinge on interaction between people (it's hard to do wrong if you can't do it to anyone but yourself), they lose meaning in isolation.
     
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  16. redfish

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    Yes and I disagree with those arguments, but that's another topic entirely and maybe not appropriate for those thread. People have successfully lived as hermits without going crazy.


    I disagree. There's a difference between ethics and morals, and a lot of moral frameworks are internally focused rather than externally focused. Things are virtuous because they're good qualities, and things are vicious because they're bad qualities -- not because they help or harm others -- but they say something about yourself. Vices are generally vices because they hurt you, not because they hurt others. In like thinking, virtues are often seen as forms of self-improvement. Patience as a virtue is a moral good, regardless if your impatience hurts others, or only hurts you. Contrarily, impatience, as a vice, is a moral evil (or bad), regardless if it hurts others or only hurts you.

    Just thinking of Ultima's ethical systems, and not going into real world examples here, Gargish virtues are very internally focused. Control, Passion, Diligence. Gargish virtues are about self-improvement. This is what makes them so unlike Britannian virtues, which are, for the most part, externally focused.
     
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  17. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    Oh my, that explains **soooo much** more with me ~grins~ ((see for further explanation))

    Exactly! thank you :)
     
  18. Sir Korvash

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    But who makes the decision that quality A is a good quality to have, but quality B is a bad quality. There is the individuals opinions, and then that of the society they live in, and the society as a whole. Your reference to Patience, is an example. By Societies standards Patience is a virtue, having evolved over time to be that way, due to societies choice to follow good manners, and other such things. However, if you look back centuries ago, patience was not held in such high regard as it is now.
     
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  19. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    Patience is a virtue? since when?... wait... i have it on clear authority REVENGE is a Virtue! o_O

    Right Lord British? ;) ((who is secretly Chaotic himself ;) )
     
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  20. redfish

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    Patience is not just about social interaction. If you're trying to forage for berries to eat, even if you live a solitary life, you need patience. If you don't, you'll get unnecessarily frustrated, and this might harm your ability to complete the task. Hunting needs patience, too. So does fishing.

    What do you mean by centuries ago? Ancient Greeks thought self-control was very important, see the Cardinal virtues. Greek values became Roman values. Patience was particularly important to Stoicism. And then Roman values found their way into Christian values, didactically evolved, and Patience is one of the Seven heavenly virtues. But, under one form or another, its been recognized as a virtue for as long as history has been recorded.
     
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