Is it me, or is it pay to win

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bornhald, Jun 26, 2014.

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  1. Noctiflora

    Noctiflora Avatar

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    Here I am!! *waves*
    @Bornhald. You had your mind made up before posting obviously and are trying to get others to agree with you. Everyone already has their own opinion and aren't likely to be swayed by any arguments.

    Indestructible tools and/or armor. Big deal. They will not be the best quality available in the game and I can't imagine anyone having any advantage with them. People will promptly replace them with better quality. The "advantage" will last maybe a week if that, for starter stuff, unless they're content to use substandard stuff through the entire game, in which case they still have no advantage.

    Choice properties. Big deal. The devs have said, more than once and in more than one place, the number of available plots at launch will be determined by the number of pledge plots plus a certain percentage that will be available for in-game purchases. And that is just for the ep1 lands. Each episode will add entire continents full of towns with available plots as well as many hexes for housing. Their comments about finite space, to my mind, was more than likely referring to after the final episode (or initially after each episode is out for a while), although they can certainly add more if needed, as has been said. And as others have said, one person's idea of "choice property" can be vastly different from another person's.

    Also, as others have said, you can't "win" the game; and if not for the pledges of the higher backers, there'd either be no game, or they'd have to get funding from a publisher who would dictate how it's made and we wouldn't get the game this team wants to make and that we're all wanting.
     
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  2. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    So, you're saying I can't play the game without a house?

    Because, I certainly think the game can be played and the story quest completed without a house.

    We have different definitions of win.
     
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  3. Trenyc

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    I doubt many people have thought about it this way, but you are absolutely right. The net impact of giving us tax-free lots is free gold, monthly. This is a legitimate gripe. Guys, as much as I am looking forward to SotA, please don't fight him on this. He is right.

    The location part, however, isn't really. Players are what make locations attractive--things like well-stocked shops, curious museums, and fun events. We can't know for sure where those things will be until the community has established itself in-game. The only real advantages you can absolutely say are conferred by early placement priorities are the ones you can accurately predict, such as the fact that early placement will guarantee we can place near our friends, guildies, and associates if we so choose. That by itself can be a big advantage where it comes to forming alliances, but anyway, because Portalarium will allow players to obtain player-owned towns through in-game means, it's certainly possible for other groups to eventually catch up to those advantages.
     
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  4. mittens

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    Once the game is released, anyone who buys the game and wasn't a backer then can still play it and I presume complete the first story and 'win'.

    Anyone who funded it has a house or a cloth map or a virtual cat or something... they too can finish the first story.

    I would, however, consider those that fund have a "Pay 2 Perk". Yes a house with storage and no rent is likely a nice benefit but it likely in no way determines a players ability to 'win'. A fun little cloth map or a virtual cat might also be neat to some. In my humble opinion, this game is in no way Pay 2 Win.

    mittens
     
  5. Akrondar

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    In dota 2, if i consider that the player with more costumes is the winner of the match, then Dota 2 is P2W. Is that statement right?

    I agree with Sir Frank. I think housing is not the final goal of the game.
     
  6. Trenyc

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    Ok everybody, it frustrates me to no end to see this argued like this.

    Look.

    Real money contributions to the game do earn you big advantages in the game. The values individuals assign to those advantages are relative, and they might potentially be evaluated differently by everyone because players' goals within the game will vary.

    It isn't about whether you actually, completely, totally, absolutely, positively WIN the game by buying a win.

    It is about the perceived value of those advantages. It's not possible to win or lose an MMORPG. And winning isn't at all what people are really talking about when they call an MMORPG P2W. What people mean is that money can buy you too big an advantage in the game, and that's where this issue hits an impasse.

    Project supporters like to talk about how the game isn't P2W, but if you follow that argument all the way down the rabbit hole, you will inevitably reach the conclusion that the game isn't P2W because you can't win it. Why the heck would anyone ever complain that a game is P2W if the complainer is actually using the P2W label in the same way those supporters take it to mean? Stop it with the freaking strawman arguments.

    He is right. He is not 100% right, and that's where we can clear things up. But backing this project does, without question, undeniably offer many of us in-game rewards--some which we might value as big in-game rewards. For example, if nabbing a big house and using it to run a huge shop is my end-goal for the game, buying a Duke package would put me right up against that goalpost. That is P2W to some people. Or rather, that is what people mean when they talk about P2W. It's not about actually winning the game in any sense other than a personal perception of what constitutes a big advantage relative to players who have similar goals and choose not to spend that money.

    And look, if your daughter wants a kitty for her birthday and is upset to see you got her a puppy instead, it's not going to work if you try to convince her that the puppy really is a kitty. You can try to convince her that puppies are great even though she doesn't like them, or you can take the puppy back and get her a proper kitty. Your perception on the matter cannot define her perception, though, even if you might leverage your perception toward the purpose of persuasion. Communicating with adults is no different.
     
  7. Ara

    Ara Avatar

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    Yes this is a pay to win game.

    Getting the best spaces for your house will get you the best spots for your NPC vendor/vendors.

    Unbreakable gear is also pay to win.

    Everything should be even when the game starts.
     
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  8. Dame Lori

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    Then, to answer the title of the post, "Is it me, or is it pay to win" I would say: "It is you."

    They are not imposing any blocks in the game that you can only surpass by giving them money. It is a matter of time involved. Reward items and prime plot locations will be available in-game, due to the second hand market.
     
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  9. Ristra

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    What is the best space? When that expac comes out all the best spaces will relocate to the new content.

    Players can impact the best space by having the best product.
     
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  10. Duke Death-Knell

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    How do you win in an MMO?

    Best place for a house is completely personal choice. Centers will change so an early selection of "best" may not work out to actually the best. What gets people coming to your vendor is quality/price. I'll go out of my way for the best, especially if it's priced right.

    Tools don't need repair, hardly a win there. As to adventuring most of the equipment we get is cosmetic. Founders armor doesn't have any significant properties except maybe a few items can be a light source.

    Without us this game wouldn't get made so you and others could play it.
     
  11. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    Well, now that we've settled that, I've got a new alloy in the smelter I've got to check on.
     
  12. Trenyc

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    This part is bad. You would fail miserably at helping him appreciate what the game is. You're not doing anyone any favors by "proving" him wrong. All you're doing is illustrating that you are equally disinterested in real conversation as you take him to be. People outside this community will call that fanaticism (fanboyism in MMO-speak), and it is not a pleasant thing to deal with when they feel they have real and legitimate criticisms.
    This part is better, but I'm not sure he'll agree that the fact that there's no total obstruction to achieving these things in-game will make him feel better. He's mad that people are starting with bonuses that he sees as big, not that he'll never be able to get most of the things in-game.
     
  13. Alayth

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    I don't think he means "pay to win" as in "you must pay to win". Just "by paying, you will win" or more generally "by paying, you get advantages over others with similar goals".
     
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  14. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Dude, Captain Jack has some advice from you. Stay well away from insulting Lori, the is basically a Dev and a Mod, she is a Shroud Sister!!!

    She can deal any insult she wishes, but she sure as hell wont have them given back to her.
     
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  15. CaptainJackSparrow

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    I can't find a downvote or thumbs down button to smash.

    So

    -1
     
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  16. Dame Lori

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    I think you completely missed the point where I was responding based on the definition you yourself provided for "pay to win", which was it is completely subjective.
     
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  17. Bornhald

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    spoken like a true fanboi great arguments, at least i had arguments and tried to get them across.
     
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  18. docdoom77

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    *Pops a bowl of popcorn and and sits Indian style in front of the screen, waiting for the explosions.*
    :p
     
  19. Trenyc

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    Nah, Jack, no worries. Communication is sort of my thing. Lori is plenty reasonable even if she is strong-headed at times (a lot like me ;)). If you want to bring criticism of her personal character into this, I'm sorry but I'll be one of the first to defend her (as I would do for a lot of people on this forum, since I feel many of the conflicts between community members are actually attributable to misunderstandings, miscommunications, and demonstrations of poor etiquette, not because anyone is actually an evil troll who is out to get everyone else :p).

    Just please don't bring criticism of personal character into anything on these forums. It's bad style. My critique was of the language used in that specific post, not of her personally.
     
  20. Dame Lori

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    Again, I was replying to Trenyc's statement that "pay to win" is totally relative based on what one finds important.
     
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