Is it me, or is it pay to win

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bornhald, Jun 26, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    2,966
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Nah, I didn't miss that. What I meant is that efforts to persuade are almost universally more successful if you can show that other person that you really understand his or her position and that you can explain why your position is better in a way that is particular relevant to that individual's perspective, not your own. I totally understand it's sometimes not easy to do, but hey--I want to keep us all on the same team here if possible. :)
     
    Lord Baldrith and BillRoy like this.
  2. rild

    rild Avatar

    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    You know, in regards to Shroud, this is very similar to the "no grinding" issue.

    If you'd just try living and breathing New Britannia, meeting people and taking interest in the world, I think you'll find the concept of 'win' drops away pretty quickly.

    Now, if you consider having the biggest house the pinnacle of the game, then yes I'll go ahead and agree it's "pay to win".

    There will be large segments of the population of New Britannia engaged in activities beyond or outside the scope of "Winning" the game. But I find it hard to see how the rewards given so far will give an EDIT -- unfair -- advantage in the areas of combat or advancement. Even if they did, the pre-launch population will be getting things started for waves of new players.

    Okay, I'm off to try and buy a map of Sindariya's maze... now THAT'S "Pay to Win" :p
     
  3. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    2,966
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    I'll make one for you. $100. :p
     
    Numa, Lord Baldrith and rild like this.
  4. Alayth

    Alayth Avatar

    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    269
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I think this really hits the nail on the head. We need to confront the fact that, yes, paying money gives advantages, and no amount of griping over the definition of "win" will really make that go away. So let's tackle the real issue: should a player be worried about the advantages pledgers can get now from putting money in?

    Personally, the reasons I've (somewhat) come to terms with the "paying for advantages" part of this game are:
    1) The advantages aren't going to be available forever, so it's only a limited number of people who will be able to (for example) buy a tax-free house/commission-free vendor. Once the game is released, this will be a really small portion of the population. (I might be wrong about this, since my understanding is they will be doing crowdfunding for episode 2, and presumably future episodes, which is worrying to me - are people always going to be able to buy tax-free lots with cash?)
    2) The advantages are generally not huge. The prosperity items are advantages, no doubt. But I don't think they're enormous. Houses and vendors are admittedly quite a bit bigger, but they're also more expensive, meaning very few people will actually have them via this method, and beyond the basic house+vendor, the higher tiers are mainly only good for their aesthetic qualities (meaning it doesn't help you with any goal beyond "have a pretty house")
    3) As DS and RG like to point out, you can always pay to win in any MMO with an open economy by using ebay or whatever it is people use for that. So having more money in real life is always going to open up the possibility of being advantaged in game. As long as the game isn't constantly harassing you to give them money to get over some obstacle, and as long as you don't need to give money to be competitive, the fact that some choose to exchange gold for advantages shouldn't wreck the game.

    So can we please have a conversation like this? Put aside the definition of winning. Tell me why a potential backer shouldn't worry about the advantages others are getting from paying cash.
     
    Numa, BillRoy, algumacoisaqq and 2 others like this.
  5. Doppelganger [MGT]

    Doppelganger [MGT] Avatar

    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    1,199
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Talk about some fanboyism! Example ^ lol
     
  6. Dame Lori

    Dame Lori Avatar

    Messages:
    831
    Likes Received:
    3,227
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Bloomington IN
    I agree with that. I was just making an observation by quoting your reply and saying that if that is true (and I do think it is), then the answer to the simplified question IMO is, "it is you." I got the impression from your other comments that you didn't see it that way, so I thought that was worth commenting on, I thought it was curious. I wasn't trying to join in the debate with a dismissive comment. I tend to write pretty lengthy posts when I'm debating, lol.
     
  7. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    2,966
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Well yes, but it's not even worth saying so at that point because the answer to the opposite question (Is this not P2W or is it me?) is also, "It's you." :p

    Rather, I like Alayth's suggestion of talking more about the impacts of the starting bonuses or what this game is meant to be. Of course, it doesn't matter how much advantage players have from the beginning if the game is meant to be a role-playing heaven which people just sit back and enjoy, but I'm not sure that idea for a game would be very popular. People like to compete, so maybe instead we should be talking about why SotA will be great fun despite the advantages that backers get from the beginning?
     
  8. draykor darkale

    draykor darkale Avatar

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    28

    Well, GW2, the most popular MMO of the last few years was a heavily instanced world, loading times a plenty in there, didn't do that any harm.
     
    BillRoy likes this.
  9. Dame Lori

    Dame Lori Avatar

    Messages:
    831
    Likes Received:
    3,227
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Bloomington IN
    This is probably why this debate confuses me. I always assumed it would be, and that the point of games is the journey. If the game is such a hassle that people view those that take $ shortcuts as having an "advantage" well... that sounds like a pretty awful game to me, and the problem is in the gameplay, not the cash shop. :oops:

    Again, others may find the true joy in having the #1 vendor, regardless of how they get there. That is fine! But I would argue that the game does not deserve a "p2w" label because of that..
     
    Numa, rild, Kaisa and 1 other person like this.
  10. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is way easier to build something up as being a successful crafter and merchant if you have the best spot for it.
    Buying that spot for real life money before the game go live give you an advantage against your competition.
     
  11. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    2,966
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    I used to be worried about that, too, but now I'm not so much. There will be loads of lots now that Row lots and player-owned towns have been put into the game, and the fact that player-owned towns can be acquired through in-game methods will mean that totally new "prime locations" might pop up from time to time. Add to that the fact that its the player involvement that makes any particular location popular, and I think picking a prime location will come down to luck more than anything, unless you're the kind that works hard to make your location a prime location, in which case it will probably become one no matter where it is. :)
     
    Dame Lori likes this.
  12. rild

    rild Avatar

    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    2,485
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    1. There are always groups of players at different levels. Level 10 players are not in direct competition with level 100 players.
    2. Some players worry that others have more time to play. An extra 8 hours a day to play is a distinct advantage, but this does not unbalance a game.
    3. This game will have many facets of play, to a degree that (imho) it will further cause the abilities of players to become divergent. As an example, I could spend my 20 hours being Knifey McStabberson, and put all my efforts into combat. Dame Lori spends hers building the BEST damn bathhouse on the continent of Novia, and Lord Trenyc spends his hammering away at his smelted materials. We will be at very different levels of play in different areas of the game. There will some impediments to overlap, but I would still be able to play with them. It's a win, win, win, win, win, world.
    4. Early access gives a more experience playing the game, and these players will have a distinct advantage. They paid for that. Hmm...
    5. The quickest advancing players will prime the economy for future play.
    6. These players will also test the most content, allowing the devs to most agilely adapt to the needs of the population, thereby improving the game for all.
    7. Some of these players, in particular our community leaders, will be not only helping to build new systems and institutions, but providing support for new players, be it through guilds, organizations like PaxLair, other community towns, tour guides, web resources such as SotACrafter, or just as friendly faces and shining examples of Virtue. Or dark emanations of Chaos. They go before you that you might succeed. And there is nothing new under the Sun.
    8. Someone will always be stronger, smarter or better at something than you. This is a fact of life.
    9. Their money is being used NOW to improve the development of this game for all.
    10. Worrying is bad for your health.
     
  13. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    UO had what i believe was a close to similar vendor system and the places they were placed on had a huge impact if you were gonna succeed as a merchant selling goods.

    Arround moongates were the best spots in UO.

    You have to work for it of course but the spot where your vendor were placed was what was most important.

    Getting a first chance to place your house and vendor will give you a advantage.
     
    Bornhald likes this.
  14. Trenyc

    Trenyc Avatar

    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    2,966
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    My small marble shop in the middle-of-freaking-nowhere SW woods of Yew made me over 2 billion gold. Of course, it helped that UO had recall runes. I doubt anyone in a bazillion years would have even found it there without Recall and adverts, let alone actually run out there to shop.

    Edit: Thinking about it, they probably would have run out there to shop in the later years, when I was selling rares you couldn't very well get anywhere else. It took a long time to get to that point, though.
     
    Lord Baldrith likes this.
  15. Duke Death-Knell

    Duke Death-Knell Avatar

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA area
    But there are multiple starting points, how do you know where the "BEST" will be. What if a guild settles near you and they craft for the masses thus blowing you away.

    And again, unless you're way off the beaten path if you build the best people will come.
     
    Lord Baldrith likes this.
  16. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    Pointless thread........everyone knows full well you cannot 'Win' in an mmo, that would imply it has a definitive end......the ultimate goals are actually individual to everyone.

    In terms of people paying $ for certain items..... well that is up to them......you know what, they are are ones funding the game....... thank you to everyone who spends $ especially to those who purchase pledges above the standard value and to those who purchase items from the addon store.

    To those who argue that spending $ is cheating .... its not ... and I shall use myself as an example. Due to my job I can't put that many hours into the game so I choose to convert my $ into something in game that might take me a year to earn compared to perhaps a month for those who have a lot more time. I see no problem in this, it is my choice and is putting nobody else at a disadvantage.

    On a side note if pledge money paid represented a true share of the company that resulted in real money being paid from profits, those who pledge more will make more money.............I would therefore say those who pledge more might be able to place a house in a 'better' location. Yet again I see no issue with this.

    Crowd funding is what makes this game happen, that is the route Portalarium went down right from day 1............it is not pay to win.....its pledge to get the game built and launched for everyone.
     
    Lord Baldrith likes this.
  17. Bornhald

    Bornhald Avatar

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    3
    except there is nothing that a player can make that is unique, it is not like a painter irl, he/she can paint a painting and that painting is unique all skill based.
     
  18. Duke Death-Knell

    Duke Death-Knell Avatar

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA area
    People will make equipment of variable levels. One does not have to max it out all the time. Also pricing is a consideration involved with that as well.

    Also crafting is a framework right now. There will be different recipes that require unique regents and everyone may not have all the same recipes.
     
    Lord Baldrith likes this.
  19. Ristra

    Ristra Avatar

    Messages:
    3,942
    Likes Received:
    5,442
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Athens
    But what is the best spot? This could be defined by too many things that are unknown by the player that gets early lot selection.

    To name some:
    Relative location to content, this is an evolving content game.
    Availability of good crafters, unless it's a player town the odds over pre-designing the housing makeup is slime if not impossible

    If I was the very first person to place my house, where do I place it to give me the very best advantage? This is unknown. The active player base needs to settle in and establish before there is a defined location of advantage.

    Still, players can combine efforts with other house owners and create an vendor grouping that draws players in. This could shift prime locations to unexpected towns.
     
    Lord Baldrith and Death-Knell like this.
  20. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Aye agree, marking runes and recall/gate spells was good for vendors placed in odd places.
     
    Lord Baldrith likes this.
  21. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Pay for advantages would be a better word.
     
    Numa and herradam like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.