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Combat and PVP team update!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Chris, Jul 7, 2014.

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  1. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    We are now one (short) week into our 8 or 9 week sprint to make combat and PVP FUN! While the team as a whole has always redefining what it means to be agile developers, we’re taking it up a notch further while working on this particular section.

    We went and found the people on the team most interested in it, cleared their schedules of almost all other work, and are having them focus exclusively on PVP and combat. Every day we do a PVP play session together with the whole team. After the session, the small group involved with combat get together and discuss what stuff needs the most love for that day. We write it all on a whiteboard and decide who is going to be working on which items. Tasks are created and assigned and then the whiteboard is erased.

    Every day we’re following that procedure and just hitting the items that were most obvious. About 50% of the work is stuff we knew about, designed, and planned on and the other 50% is stuff that was not at all obvious until we really started getting our hands dirty. We’re rapidly approaching the point where instead of playing to find bugs, exploits, and problems, we’re playing because we want to WIN. :)

    I’ll post what got done in our first week of work here. To keep the conversation smaller, I’ll be posting future weeks over in Dev Plus section!

    Changes for week one of the PVP Team of NINJAS:
    • Enable PVP!!!!!
    • Spell/ability interruption - Definable concentration length for spells followed by execute length. For spells that cannot be interrupted, the concentration length is zero and the execute length is the casting time
    • Made moving/emotes/jumping interrupt spell/skills if movement occurs during concentration time
    • Player no longer turns to face target if they are out of range
    • Fix so only one spell/ability can be cast at a time
    • Fix for collider when player is dead so dead things are easier to click on
    • Correctly sync other player’s health
    • Add variable cast lengths
    • Updated network messages to properly show stat effects
    • Updates so party members can be attacked
    • Update faction system to handle players attacking other players
    • Made it so you can target yourself
    • F1 targets yourself. F2-F6 targets party members.
    • Pressing alt while using an ability makes it cast on yourself without losing your current target
    • Targeting now breaks at long range
    • If you don’t have a target and you get attacked, the attacker is auto targetted
    • Your current target shows up with name, health, focus on your screen. (likely will pull focus off)
    • Combat logging and metrics parsing (confirmed, everyone uses fireball way too much!)
    • Remove character effects on death
    • Restore full focus on resurrection (this needs eval)
    • You can now click on party member UI on screen to target them
    • Fixed emotes so they can’t be used when dead. (Duh! but was fun confusing people)
    • Hotbar icons now grey out if target is not in range
    • Added cool down timer to hotbar icons (Greys out and then fills with color with a clock motion)
    • Show healthbars for all players if name plates are on
    • Weapon stat tuning
    • Added “Whisper” and “Invite to party” to right click player menu
    • Added a very basic character stats window
    • Tweaks for wand/staff mana use
    • Fix for Root spell. (It was making the players move at -100X their speed due to mix up on due to not knowing something was normalized vs percent. This was a fun bug. :) )
    • Creation of and optimization of castle arena basement for use as test PVP space

    For those wondering, the PVP/Combat ninjas are B “Bzus”, Justin “Oneandonly”, and Ken “Burning Toad”. I’m cracking the whip on the ninjas and helping direct them but don’t have time to do enough real “Ninja” work to claim a ninja title. Starr, Richard, and a few others are also joining in on PVP conversations to sanity check our decisions as always.

    This week we’ll probably get more into the details and start fixing some specific skills and making sure every skill has a purpose! Dev Plus people can look forward to more detailed posts on this topic in the coming weeks!

    As always, thanks for reading my wordy post!
     
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  2. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    Awesome Chris, thanks for sharing this.
     
  3. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    p.s. Anyone fighting with bow and arrow? Hope that is well balanced :) (says 'Carlin the Archer')
     
  4. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Chris and PVP team, please read this thread...

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ly-what-sota-combat-should-not-be-like.12554/

    I have a general concern that I don't see COUNTERS anywhere. If someone casts a fireball spell on me, how do I simply block it? What are my options? If all my options are to just "take some form of damage" then aren't we just spamming each other trying to get the most DPS possible?
    Well yeah, that's how people play MMO's they get whatever does the most damage and they fire that all day long. What's the COUNTER? Every attack and every attack combo should have a counter.


    I really want SOTA combat to be more of a chess match and less of a math spreadsheet.


    P.S. I love the post, I love the specialized team, and I can't wait to read more and see the combat system evolve. I have a lot of faith in you guys and I hope my comments and feedback (yes I know my tone is harsh) will push you towards the best solutions. Best of luck!
     
  5. tekkamansoul

    tekkamansoul Avatar

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  6. TheMadHermit

    TheMadHermit Avatar

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    Looks good! Can't wait to see this in action.
     
  7. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    Absolutely will be. BTW Mr. Archer, what are your thoughts on bows in combat? Current thinking is we would allow it but give penalty for moving while using it and possibly have a skill to reduce the penalty.

    Part of the reason for this is because we're after realism and that is realistic! The bigger reason though is it introduces another combat strategy. Engage archers ASAP or expect to get eaten alive by them. Get on top of them and they will at least be low defense targets.

    I'll get into it more over in the devplus area but we are focusing on balancing things though I doubt everything will be really balanced by the end of R9. I know people just want us to put a DPS rating on every weapon so they can compare Sword vs Axe vs Bow but it won't be that simple. We have to look at all the factors. For example, for bows here are some of the pros/cons I would consider:

    • Ranged!
    • Cost per shot (arrows) Faster attacks == more cost?
    • Less accurate when moving?
    • Strength less of a factor for damage bonus
    • User's defense reduced while using?
    • Allow some mechanism for additional damage for aimed shot? (+time aiming? Skill? )
    • Weapon not damaged by attack? (balance for ammo?)
    • Additional bonus when used on stationary target?
    • High crit chance, armor penetrating?
    • Could be made flexible by allowing for different arrow types to give bonuses
    Each of those type items will be considered when balancing stuff out. For instance, the fact that it has a cost per shot means we can nudge the DPS up a bit but still consider it in balance. Same with making users of bows have reduced defense. This allows us to balance it with more damage.

    No worries, we'll start doing weapon/armor testing/balancing stuff next week and we won't forget about our archers!
     
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  8. mike11

    mike11 Avatar

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    Cool update but what I am wondering what is really being done to try innovating combat so that its not going to become like every other combat system out there (being cooldown reliant) where winning means just firing off the most high damage abilities as quickly as possible.


    Not an easy taskt!

    Sent from my GT-S5690M using Tapatalk 2
     
  9. Lord Baldrith

    Lord Baldrith Avatar

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    Good balancing Chris. I assume Mages will have similar pros and cons with reguards to defense and dps. Wearing cloth and using regents should be offset by higher dps :)
     
  10. Mitch [MGT]

    Mitch [MGT] Avatar

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    FANTASTIC CHRIS!

    Let's get some BTS videos going! ;)
     
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  11. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Dude, that is a great question! It's awesome to see you ask archer lovers for input like that.

    Personally, I think archers should own at long range and then (just like mages) they better have a backup plan up close. There are probably a multitude of ways to accomplish this, but the bottom line is that if you get close enough to Legolas that he's using his whimpy Elf dagger on you, then you should probably be able to cut him down quickly with a large sword.

    Here's another question back to you. Why do you need ANY DPS ratings? Can't you make a combat system based on the weaknesses of your opponent? So for example, if you and I are fighting and I'm wearing plate you might have to hit me in one of eight weak points on my armor if using a blade? Or perhaps you need to smash in my armor and crush my bones with a large hammer? Or maybe you're going to use a spike to pry open new weak spots? You don't need ANY DPS for this and it's inherently defensive!



    Honestly, I don't think you guys could go wrong by just watching every Conquest video you could find and making the combat system based off that. :)
     
  12. Alayth

    Alayth Avatar

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    I just want to second this. I'm sure the team is dealing with this issue in some way or another - I don't think combat can possibly be fun if it's just "who can do the most DPS?", so I'm sure it's being addressed by the ninjas if combat is being made fun!

    Regardless, here are some examples of things I would like to see in combat (some of which already sort of exist, but I hope will play a big role in pvp combat):
    -spells damaging a certain AREA (can be centered on the target at the time of casting, but won't follow the target) and therefore high mobility can be used to avoid them
    -spell shields/reflection that, if used at just the right time, can block/reflect the enemies spell
    -spells differing in how easily disrupted they are (I think you guys are already doing this, based on the post)
    -disables that lock your opponent down (slow, silence, blind, totally stun, etc.) but don't do much damage
    -mobility/positioning spells, to get the upper hand by moving into the better position (closer or further from your opponent, or into cover, etc), or even being able to pull your opponent around with spells (drag them towards you, shove them away)

    A lot of this is coming out of MOBA combat (like DotA), which I think strikes a really good balance between fast-paced excitement and careful, strategic combat. I would love for the pvp combat in SotA to be a slightly slower, more flexible version of that.
     
  13. Duke Lorimus

    Duke Lorimus Avatar

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    If the Person Stops just before Loose will that damage go back to 100 % Normal..... I would assume yes because the other person will now catch up and hit you for 100 % normal damage .
     
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  14. TEK

    TEK Legend of the Hearth

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    Great update to read about!

    Two suggestions regarding stuns and roots:

    1. Allow any damage to "break" any stun/root.
    2. Create equipment to use to "break" you free. Not as an active counter all the time, but as reaction to stun/root.

    One of the aspects of UO combat that I loved was the back and forth dance you could make in fights, or great escapes you could make against ganks IF you were properly equipped with counter measures against stuns....in this case it was "magic trapped" bags inside your inventory. This also create more player skill involved in stunning and countering....rather than being completely helpless while you get beat up.
     
  15. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    Absolutely on the same page with you. Also taking lessons from MOBAs and trying to make as many apple vs orange type elements as possible. By that I mean If you have a spell that does 25 damage and a spell that does 40 damage then it is a no brainer to know which is better as it is very much an apple to apple comparison. So now what happens if I tell you that the 25 damage spell has a half second casting time and the 40 damage spell has a 3 second casting time and is interruptable? Now which is better? What if I told you that the 25 point spell was instant damage and the 40 point spell was actually 5 points a second for 8 seconds and the damage could be removed with the right spell/ability? Now which one is better? What if the 25 point spell also included a stun chance, was harder to resist, used half the mana, but used an expensive reagent.

    The goal is to have no skill/spell/weapon that can be directly compared to another and have one that is obviously superior. We never want people to be able to say Spell X > Spell Y > Spell Z, therefore only get Spell X. If metrics show that there are some skills that don't get used, we'll take a look at fixing them.

    So, now that I got that bit of thought out there for people to chew on I can answer your question. :) ABSOLUTELY, we'll be looking for counters. For instance, if you look in that list above you'll see some blurbs about interrupts and concentration time. In next week's list, you'll see a bunch of targeting changes and spell resolve changes that make some spells go for a location, not a player.

    So those are two mechanics to make fireball balanced and counterable. First, it is getting a longish casting time. You'll see the "Fire" sigil come up as they are casting and if you're in combat with them, you'll have time to interrupt them. For casting it at range where it might be harder to interrupt them, the targeting change and resolve changes are to make fireball behave like a fireball and not a seeking missile! It will now target a position, not a person. If you have someone targeted, then their current position is used for the the target but the spell will no longer follow you if you run! The spell will move fairly slow and at longer ranges you will probably be able to avoid the damage altogether IF you're paying attention and aren't a dumb ass!

    So, with those changes in fireball spell can be interrupted and it can be dodged. Also, we're adding douse for R8 so you will also be able to counteract a large part of the damage component to the spell, the damage over time of burning. Also, you will be damaged by your own fireball so casting at point blank is not such a great idea. :)

    On the positive side, these new negative features for fireball can be used to justify some extreme damage for it while still considering it balanced. It also means that because you can target a spot instead of just a character, you can aim it into spots where you think someone might be hiding! If you think someone is hiding around the corner you can aim a fireball for the corner and follow your own fireball in so it goes off and then you're on them. You can use it to force archers/healers to stop what they are doing and scatter. It adds strategic uses to it and also very much squarely puts it in the orange category compared to all the other apples out there.

    We'll be trying to give each skill that kind of thought to try and balance it! Wish us luck!
     
  16. Lord Baldrith

    Lord Baldrith Avatar

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    Chris that is amazing! Spells that are all superior in their own way...Ya never seen it done and I love it!
     
  17. Drocis the Devious

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    I loved the response and I can tell you're going to be crazy passionate about this and really try to innovate. All the math and numbers...woah, I don't want to have to care about any of that.

    I like it more when you're casting a fire ball at me and I know "don't get hit with that thing, it's a freakin fire ball!" So I either dodge, or try to get inside it's range (like you mention below) or use another spell that "counters" the fireball. In D&D I might have a series of other options of both active and passive spells. If I'm trying to cast a spell after the fact then it's going to be too late.

    What I'd like to see is spells that specifically COUNTER (read: block in full) the fireball from each elemental school. So maybe Earth and Air don't counter as well as Water might, and maybe water has more spells that can be used...but the goal would be to have a few spells that actively protect a person or a group outright. It's like you've prepared for 'the fire mage' ahead of time. I mean if you know that you're fighting someone that just casts fireballs at you all day... you should be able to come to the party prepared for that.

    The idea of having douse be a viable counter was brought up in the thread I posted the link to above. My feeling on that is if you're trying to avoid an attack after you've already been hit with it, it's not really a counter. I mean you may very well be dead before you can cast it, and you may very well die trying to cast it. This favors the offense too much and so a true counter is something that puts the defender back in a position to win.


    That's awesome man. On a side note, I remember so many videos of you talking (rambling) about pvp, and I always thought when we get to the point where they start developing pvp, that's the guy I want leading the charge. It's really exciting to see you've stepped up to head this thing.
     
  18. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    Hehe... I was typing up more detail that answered most your questions while you were typing this. :) And yes, the Apples vs Oranges stuff I mention above comes largely out MOBAs. I've been a huge advocate for making combat skillful from day 1. Not only is skillful combat more satisfying but it also is crucial to our desire to flatten our the power curve, remove the level grind, not have fixed classes, and not have gear define you but rather only be an augmenting factor.
     
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  19. Bubonic

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    this all sounds great!

    just out of curiosity, how does this development reflect the design of the card deck system? do details like these need to be ironed out BEFORE implementing the cards, or is it all seamless (by this i mean u can design PVP elements and changes, and then just easily apply them to the deck system)
     
  20. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

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    @Carlin the Archer, maybe you should do the root spell in addition to your archery! Root and Shoot baby, Root and shoot! :p
     
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