Archery: Make it worth while

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Carlin the Druid Archer, Apr 27, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~


    Hmmm... flimsy but flexible... but a bow and a helm? Doable, maybe, but never as good as a less armored archer...o_O
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  2. Duke Lorimus

    Duke Lorimus Avatar

    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    1,398
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    If this was UO , then Archers will be On or close to the top of the food chain ,,,,, they could move and Loose , and a magic user would have to stop. ....

    At the very least I expect them to be wicked in SoTA.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  3. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Generally speaking.. full helms of almost any kind are so limiting to your field of vision that no archer would ever use one. You'd want something more form fitting like that chain coif or an open faced helm. Anything else would just make aiming pointless.
     
    DizzySol and Samlee like this.
  4. Greyhaven

    Greyhaven Avatar

    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The United Kingdom
    More than "worthwhile" - sometimes a key part of your strategy.

    Mentions of enchanted arrows here, where the arrow is the means of delivering an effect over distance. True enough - an essential combination of Sleep Arrow and Silence Arrow in Aion meant you could go Rifting and run amok.

    Back to the matter:
    In his post "The Archer!", Mulgirtab gives us an assessment of different types of arrow heads. All well and good, but these are conventional arrows for conventional uses. Alright for snagging some venison for the dinner table, but not much good for bringing down the biggest beasts threatening the realm.

    Let me tell you about "TrueFlight". These arrows have no head in conventional terms. They are like long spikes with flights, where the point is shaped by magic to become impossibly sharp. These cut through the air with little resistance meaning that they can travel a much greater distance. There is also another obvious benefit to arrows so sharp - armour penetration.

    Get yourself a quiver of those and have your enemies fall before you.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  5. Samlee

    Samlee Avatar

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    104
    Trophy Points:
    20
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bullitt County, Kentucky
    The R8 Archer triumphs! (Keeping this thread alive... please?)

    Okay, truth be told, in PvP I needed clumsy clanking Guild mates to assist, and my basic archery deck was enhanced with Roots, Stuns, Flame Arrow, Lightening, and heavy enough in Life Deck "Hjeals" to allow me to resurrect fallen companions. In PvE my old nemesis (foul murders of innocent wandering gatherers!), the Elves and Kobolds, were taken out handily, sometimes two at a time when my Deck randomized in my favor. The favorable randomization occurred much more frequently than not. In a very short time, I learned to handle both melee and casters in PvE, keeping them at a distance, drawing them one at a time from their groups when possible, and doing so quickly enough to defeat their re-spawn rate and allow looting of wagons and campsites.

    Did I mention that I REALLY enjoyed both PvP (even when I ate a lot of road dust!) and the PvE, and the Deck building system as an intellectual toy to while away hours of "if I choose this, then maybe I can prevent that..."

    The RP Ranger/Archer/Bowcrafter, with herbal and mystical healing skills, is alive and well in SotA.

    His name is...

    -Samlee Bowman
     
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    That sounds like it relies very heavily on magic though. A non-magic user wouldn't be able to root and cast lightning or rez their meat shields. How viable would archery have been in R8 without relying on magic? What was just described isn't archery. It's a mage with a bow.
     
    Lord Trady of Blix and Samlee like this.
  7. Samlee

    Samlee Avatar

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    104
    Trophy Points:
    20
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bullitt County, Kentucky
    Bowen, that is very true. I used a full set of cards from the Archery Combat tree, but relied heavily on spell casting for survival in R8. As the game is balanced in the future, I am assuming that a non-magic user (Ranged or Melee) will be able to go toe-to-toe with a pure caster, with neither side able to be sure of the outcome. The Dev's promise balance in PvP/PvE combat, and I take them at their word.

    Samlee the character would prefer to be a non-magic user (caster) when the grand ball opens in the fall. If my handmade arrow bounces off the mages invincible bubble shield, then balance will not be achieved. At the least, allow me to manufacture arrows with the lightening, or DOT flame tips, etc, to duplicate the spells currently seen.

    -Sam
     
  8. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    Bowen, great posts.

    I do think there are some games that have figured out archery by combining it with other skill sets that somewhat helped balance it. There are a number of different archery models out there that can be a lot of fun. I have found that the fun is not in one shotting something, but the risk.

    At the end of the day, the devs have to decide if archery is pure ranged, or range to start and then melee to finish. Then the skills need to be balanced based on that model.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  9. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    I think of the things that makes archery interesting is that it can be used in different ways. My archery style seems to be that of a stealth sniper. I would always sneak around, find my shot.. the longer the range the better. Nothing quite like taking down an enemy as maximum range where they never saw it coming. :) It's that feeling of outwitting your enemy through pure stealth and skill that they never stood a chance.

    Of course there's also the hit & run.. or whittle them down as you lure them into close range for melee. Mixing ranged with other styles. Supplement with magic or alchemy etc.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  10. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,265
    Likes Received:
    6,621
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Arrows and bows definitely need to do more damage. I tried this in PvP in R8 and I found it very difficult to do and put you at great risk from mages who could do stun effects with lightning.
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    I think a skilled archer could apply alchemy by coating their arrowheads in potions (or paying to have it done). Having ammo enchanted is always a possibility also. At this point you're doing a lot of balancing vs spells and reagents. How much does it cost in both skills and resources to be able to enchant ammo or coat them in potions? How much does it cost in skill and ingredients to make those potions?

    You probably shouldn't be able to stack properties though. Enchantments should probably over power potions making them useless and different potions should cancel each other out. So at most you might have 2 properties placed on an arrow. (I'm thinking past Ultimas here where some arrows did extra damage and were very accurate).

    Though I am more inclined towards fletchers being able to craft a variety of mundane arrows. I had brought it up elsewhere but I forget which thread exactly. Different materials for the arrow shaft.. you'd need stronger material for a compound bow than you would for a short bow for example. Different types of arrow heads vs different armor. Superior fletching for improved accuracy and range etc.

    There's a lot of possibilities just in the type of bow and arrows.
     
    Samlee and Lord Trady of Blix like this.
  12. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    I just have one thing to add to the "value of archery vs balance of archery" debate.

    Poisons.
     
    Numa and Samlee like this.
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    With poisons much come antidotes but absolutely. But the availability of any poison should be countered by equally available ways to overcome that poison. Common poisons would generally be weaker and easy to cure. Less common, deadlier poisons should be harder to deal with but not impossible.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  14. Lord-Galiwyn

    Lord-Galiwyn Avatar

    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Columbus,Ga
    My thoughts on The Archer! post

    It is my belief that the Flame Arrow spell should be ONLY for Characters Actively using a Bow.
    Otherwise its just another Fireball spell.

    I love Archer/rangers/hunters...
     
    Samlee likes this.
  15. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    Most poisons do not have readily available antidotes. The application of many antidotes that do exist to their matching poisons is very time consuming. In many cases, we don't use an "antidote", we use a method of removing the poison altogether, such as chelation, hemodialysis, or, for ingested poisons, activated charcoal or induced vomiting. The key fact here is that none of these is likely to be available in combat, while getting shot and re-poisoned.

    If a weapon introduces a poison into your body during combat, it is completely reasonable to have it's effects remain for the combat. Such as a powerful soporific, which would begin forcing you to go to sleep, or a halucinogen, which would interfere with your ability to tell friend from foe from giant purple butterfly.

    Also, remember that almost all poisons and toxins have effects that are dose based, so successive hits with the same poison SHOULD make the effect stronger and stronger, instead of just renewing the duration. That sleep inducing poison might not do much on the first hit, but by the seventh, you are gonna be face down snoring.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  16. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    Problem with all that. Game. Balance. If poisons can't be countered that's called over powered. It may be more realistic this is the sort of situation where you have to say screw realism in favor of balanced gameplay.
     
    Samlee and Vendetta Beretta like this.
  17. Malekin McKracken

    Malekin McKracken Avatar

    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mountains, Rocks, SAND and HEAT!! far from home
    IMHO ranged weapons - just as in real life - should "loose" damage / power as they travel over distance...... seems pretty sensible that damage from the fringe not be as high as an arrow just snapped off the bowstring and traveling at optimum velocity. So hopefully there is time allowances and reduction in damage entered into the calculations that would allow for possible deflection / dodge if the targeted player is paying attention, while still allowing the Ranger his boon for all that practice and skill....... with a larger payoff if he risks the distance and potential for personal peril to sink an arrow or bolt into his enemy. ;)
     
    MalakBrightpalm and Samlee like this.
  18. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    If poisons cannot be countered, it's called debuffs and DPS. You don't have to instantly die from every poison. One that interferes with focus generation for 10 seconds per dose would be USEFUL and DANGEROUS, not GAMEBREAKING. A hallucinogen or soporific that made you less effective in combat wouldn't break the game. An actual toxin that inflicted a ticking damage over time wouldn't break the game.

    They cost money and or time to acquire and prepare. They take skill to use and apply (without poisoning yourself!), and the actual effects and durations are up to the devs.

    For an example of a real poison that really has no antidote and really kills, check out the destroying angel mushroom. For a poison that probably DOESN'T kill but would make a great damage increaser, Essence of Foxglove or basic acetylsalicylic acid are both cheap and can make a wound much more dangerous. Neither has a specific antidote.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  19. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

    Messages:
    13,289
    Likes Received:
    23,380
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caer Dracwych
    I am not suggesting they be easier to counter as they would to use. Only that they can be countered as any other debuff you might expect. Would not other debuffs have a means to counter? For that matter would you not also be able to counter buffs? How's that for a poison? One that removes certain buffs.

    You spend a lot of time and energy into making and using your poison. Someone who's spent an equal amount of time and effort learning how to counteract said poison ought to be able to do so.
     
    Samlee likes this.
  20. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    Absolutely! I have no problem with someone who carries a curative on him, especially a magickal one. I do think that if there is a universal antidote that is relatively available and cheap, that will destroy the usefulness OF poisons, so I wouldn't recommend one. That being said, having someone who spent just as much time on blocking poisons as I spent developing and using them SHOULD be protected from my poisons.

    Someone who did NOT spend time or energy on poison defenses should suffer the consequences, and thus the wheel of skills moves on another rotation.
     
    Samlee likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.